When did the double loop holster appear?

[Black Powder]

No, I don't have a copy of Packin' Iron.  It has a place in my personal library.  My public library doesn't have it.  Of course I can't wait until I get my own book to research...

I am carrying a 60 Army c&b and a Model P.  In the market for my first rig.  Persona is in the 1877-1882 time period.  Would it be authentic for this time frame to have the "new" cartridge revolver in a double loop and the "old" c&b in a Slim Jim?  Slim Jim would be in a cross-draw, which my or may not be authentic either...

I kinda like the look of the mix & match, but gotta know if this is appropriate. 

Thanks.

BP

[St. George]

You're in luck - in that time frame, the Mexican Loop was in wide general use for cartridge revolvers - right along with the Slim Jim that was beginning to fade away, as the cap and ball revolvers were rapidly falling out of favor, since the self-contained cartridge proved so much more reliable.

You may want to think about converting your percussion revolver...

Your Public Library 'can' order 'Packing Iron' on an Inter-Library Loan, should you still be assembling the needed funds to purchase your own copy.

As to your 'cross-draw' question - I have an 'R.T. Frazier' floral-carved cross-draw (specifically built as such) that I use - and it was made in the latter 1880's.

Most so-called 'cross-draw' holsters as seen in period photos were in reality a right-handed holster worn on the left hip.

During the era of the Frontier West - the 'mix and match' of weaponry and leather was very common.

Men used what they had, and for the most part, didn't wander about loaded for bear - a single revolver being more than sufficient.

The idea of a 'matched' rig came about around the turn of the century, thanks to the Silver Screen and Dime Novels that also popularized the 'two-gun' rig and the near-continual gunfights.

Before you buy your rig - buy that copy of 'Packing Iron' and figure out exactly what you want to use.

You'll be money ahead.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Black Powder]

St. G -

I won't even ask you how many times you've replied with this info.  Imagine you're adept at copy/paste so you're not writing entirely from scratch.  Anyway, thank you much.  I don't know where I got that impression that the double loop appeared later; I suspect that I've been on such an accelerated info gathering mode that I simply confused it with something else.

Your Public Library 'can' order 'Packing Iron' on an Inter-Library Loan, should you still be assembling the needed funds to purchase your own copy.

I'm just gonna buy Packing Iron instead of wait for the library system to work.  In all fairness, Cleveland Public Library is outstanding.  Like I said, this book belongs in my book case, so the library should make their copy available for somebody else.

You're in luck - in that time frame, the Mexican Loop was in wide general use for cartridge revolvers - right along with the Slim Jim that was beginning to fade away, as the cap and ball revolvers were rapidly falling out of favor, since the self-contained cartridge proved so much more reliable.

I was gonna buy a CW holster and switch it to the left side.  It'd end up in a conventional mode, then, with the butt facing back.  Then I figured the person that did that likely would've cut the flap off and I wasn't gonna do that to a perfectly good holster.  Then I got to thinking that my character, being the entrpreneur storekeeper, would make a point of buying new stuff for himself to increase interest and drum up biz.  So I figure he'd've bought a Slim Jim, then later he'd've bought a new holster for his new-fangled cartridge revolver.

You may want to think about converting your percussion revolver...

I have!  Think that's somewhere after hat, coat, vest, trousers, lever gun, SxS... 

As to your 'cross-draw' question - I have an 'R.T. Frazier' floral-carved cross-draw (specifically built as such) that I use - and it was made in the latter 1880's.

Most so-called 'cross-draw' holsters as seen in period photos were in reality a right-handed holster worn on the left hip.
During the era of the Frontier West - the 'mix and match' of weaponry and leather was very common.  Men used what they had, and for the most part, didn't wander about loaded for bear - a single revolver being more than sufficient.  The idea of a 'matched' rig came about around the turn of the century, thanks to the Silver Screen and Dime Novels that also popularized the 'two-gun' rig and the near-continual gunfights.

All good news.  Believe I'm getting clarity of vision.  Pardon my corporate speak; it's appraisal time on the cube farm. 

Before you buy your rig - buy that copy of 'Packing Iron' and figure out exactly what you want to use.  You'll be money ahead.

Yeah but don't that mean havin' to wait...? 

Thanks again,

BP

[Advertising]

[St. George]

Gotta admit - I 'have' fielded this one before, so my doing it from memory's not too much of a stretch...

Elsewhere in my 'Notes' I talk about creating your Impression, so you might want to look through the back pages here and review it.

The first thing I advise is to do the research, since it helps you to focus, since it'll save money, for certain.

You can spend your hard-earned dollars on a single 'good' outfit and be able to change it pretty easily by adding/subtracting different articles later on.

For example - wearing your trousers tucked inside of your cathedral-stitched boots will place you in the late '60's - mid-to-late '80's, and placing them on the outside puts you into both a later time frame as well as into a 'town' persona.

Easy stuff...

If I can be of further assistance - just ask.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Rattenbury&sts=t&tn=Packing+Iron&x=68&y=11

Several copies of PACKING IRON are available!

Abe Books is a great source of reading pleasure.

[Bangor Dan]

Thanks for the "headsup" regarding Abebooks.......just ordered me a copy!

Bangor Dan

[Black Powder]

A box of 3 books came a week ago.  One was "Packing Iron."  I decided that the spots I thought I wanted were not correct to my period, so I revised my order for a double loop RH and a Slim Jim x-draw.  Going with the clipped Californa buckle.  It's pictured on p. 101, so that could be found in the 1878-82 period.  No involved carving either.  Just some border tooling.  Different patterns on both holsters though.  I don't want them matched.  I wouldn't mind if the maker finshed them from different lots of stain either.  Anyway, it is a fine book. 

The other book was "Cowboys - Trappings of the Old West."  Same publisher, ZON.  Both hard-bound.  Lots of pictures.  Coffee table books.  Well, the missus & I disagree, but I  think it matches the decor.    Cowboy book isn't very good on townfolk gear, but that ain't the title of the book.  And if you like lookin' at pictures of rugged cowboys, and who among us don't, it's a good book.

The third book was the Chicoine Gunsmithing book.  Not exaclty the book on how to trick out your guns (and I would not expect to find such a book), but probably will come in handy down the road.  Could have the first week I'd owned my Model P and took it apart to clean the crud out.  Nothing disasterous, but let's just say the first part I looked up in my new book is called a "gate catch."  You know, that itty bitty tiny little pencil tip piece of metal that sits on top of a similarly dimensioned spring...  Well, like I said, I now know what it's called.  Prior to this, I only knew what it sounded like when it falls onto the basement floor.  Got lucky and found it.  C'mon, my '60 Army ain't got a little spring and plug.  Who'd a thunk? 

Enjoy your new book, BD.

What I want to find is some Montgomery Ward, or similar, reprint catalog from around 1875.

BP

[Dr. Bob]

The 1875 Ward's catalog is available in reprint.  Problem is that there are NO pictures of the clothing.  The Time/Life Old West series, The Townsmen has lots of pictures, but not enough are dated for my satisfaction.  The State Historical Society of Wisconsin has published a pattern taken from a 3 piece sack suit in their collection.  It is available from James Country Mercantile [816-781-9473] and makes up into a nice suit!  I had James Country make two of them for me.  Talk to Jean and she will work with you.  I furnished my own fabric and I am very satisfied with the suits.  Jean always has some nice fabric on hand, plaids & plains.  I feel real fortunate to live only 20 miles from the store.   Good luck!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Greetings!

BP, those are the same 2 books (Packing Iron & Cowboy Trappings ...) that began MY meager western reference library.  You can hardly do better for a beginning.  And the gunsmithing book will pay YOU back in the long run.  I LOVED your description of the part name! 

St. George will correct me if I'm a little off here.  When I started looking at historical leather goods, my friend Jeff http://www.cumberlandleather.com/ showed me his copy of P.I. and I basically pointed out what I wanted.  Since you already have your leather ordered, it's a small point, but here goes.  The "Slim Jim" style as you've noted came pretty much first after the covered flap types.  A bit later, the first double loop types appeared - the Mexican Double loop.  Later that style evolved into the Wyoming style of multiple loops, so yours will fit fine.  Basically, the main difference between the Mexican doubles and the Wyoming style is where the holster's trailing edge can be seen between the loops: the newer Wyoming style has a slight swell that helps the holster to stay inserted in the loops and doesn't pull out very easily when the pistol (revolver mostly  ) is drawn.  It's a small, but important difference.  Gallatin, Menea, and other makers of the late '70s and beyond are well represented in the book (P.I.) and are often the later Wyoming double loop type.  The cover of the book shows an absolutely GORGEOUS (IMHO) example, that I'm proud to say served as the inspiration for my "Sunday go to Meetin'" holster.  (Mine has a slightly different pattern so it's not a blatant rip-off.) 

Also, as good of a book as it IS, keep in mind that the Cowboy Trappings, etc. book deals with the Northern Plains but is NOT representative of the Texans and other southwest area people.

Have fun!

[St. George]

Three 'good' references are a good start...

The comment about those Northern Plains outfits is accurate - just keep in mind that styles differed by region, but often, the designs made smooth transitions to different areas without significant change.

Southern Plains outfits will have a very distinctive Mexican influence - and there may be more decoration and color.

Not to worry - the American Cowboy was not afraid of color...

The 'Mexican Loop' holster may have started out relatively 'plain' - but the American Cowboy did like whatever 'embellishment' he could afford, and some of the carvings on those holsters made later in the era are amazing.

There were probably more 'plain' holsters seen, though - they'd've been the ones on the shelf when one was needed to be purchased.

In many cases - those got their embellishment later - when a bored cowboy found that he could add the odd nickel spot ot concho, or could carve a design of his own.

As to the different Mail Order catalogs - look for the ones produced from 1900 and earlier - remembering what was available for the 1900 catalog was in stock in 1899.

The clothing varied very little - mens styles seldom do - and there seems to be a greater number of those later reprints available in either full-size or pocket-size.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Black Powder]

The 1875 Ward's catalog is available in reprint.  Problem is that there are NO pictures of the clothing.  The Time/Life Old West series, The Townsmen has lots of pictures, but not enough are dated for my satisfaction.  The State Historical Society of Wisconsin has published a pattern taken from a 3 piece sack suit in their collection.  It is available from James Country Mercantile [816-781-9473] and makes up into a nice suit!  I had James Country make two of them for me.  Talk to Jean and she will work with you.  I furnished my own fabric and I am very satisfied with the suits.  Jean always has some nice fabric on hand, plaids & plains.  I feel real fortunate to live only 20 miles from the store.   Good luck!

Thanks for tellin' me about the 1875 Ward catalog.  I have poured over the T/L series, particularly the Townsmen issue.  Problem with it is it's not really first hand research.  Still, I recommend it.  And I have another sutler bookmarked.  Thanks again, Dr. B.

Since you already have your leather ordered... the newer Wyoming style has a slight swell that helps the holster to stay inserted in the loops and doesn't pull out very easily when the pistol (revolver mostly  ) is drawn.  It's a small, but important difference... 

There is some benefit in these small operations working on 6-8 week lead times - I can change my mind; he hastn't even started it!  Looking at what I ordered and what you describe, I believe the style this maker uses is Wyoming.  Might be pushing me a little beyond the 1878 part of my intended '78-'83 range closer to 1880, but that should still work.  The pattern is pretty close to the bottom of p. 102, but the shape is more like the top left on p. 102.

I came real close to ordering my double loop with spots like the back cover of PI.  That's a gorgeous rig.  Heck, the whole book is terrific to look at.  Just let it fall open...

... keep in mind that styles differed by region, but often, the designs made smooth transitions to different areas without significant change... There were probably more 'plain' holsters seen, though - they'd've been the ones on the shelf when one was needed to be purchased... In many cases - those got their embellishment later - when a bored cowboy found that he could add the odd nickel spot ot concho, or could carve a design of his own.

All very good points, St. G.  A fair number of those folks moved around a bit.  Tombstone to Colorado and Dodge to Deadwood are pretty fair distances; certainly far enough apart to have different cultural influences.  As these folks roamed, seems a lot of these fashions would meld with one another. 

I read somewhere about the relatively high literacy rate of the folks that headed west.  I think those folks had to have been imaginative.  They had to have vision.  Stands to reason that they tinkered, fixed stuff and created art.  Makes sense to me.  I don't think I'm overstepping if I think it's reasonable to think that we can actually imagine what those Americans back then actually thought.  Whether this is some cultural subconsciousness, I dunno.  I'm buying my first holster.  It's fairly plain and affordably priced.  I can see fiddling with it as time goes on.

Snowed a ton and I got my books and lots of good ideas from here.  Not bad... 

BP

[Buck Stinson]

As a collector of vintage gun leather, I don't know of anyone in this circle who will say with any certainty, when double loop holsters came into being.  I do know that E. L. Gallatin was probably one of the first in the northern Great Plains area to offer a double loop holster for Colt Single Actions.  It could actually be considered a Slim Jim with a skirt.  This photo shows a copy that I made of an original Gallatin double loop holster that I owned many years ago.  The original was lined with red corduroy and dated to around 1875.  I chose to line my reproduction with buckskin.  The second photo shows a couple of original Gallatin Slim Jims from my collection for comparison.  These date to the 1860-1865 period.  The one on the right is pictured on page 85, Packing Iron.


In 1978, I coined the term "Cheyenne Holster" when I made reference to one of the reproductions I pictured in our first catalog.  These next two photos illustrate the holster I was talking about.  These are both F.A. Meanea rigs, probably made between 1885 and 1890.  The first one is a 7 1/2" for a Colt SA with a 4" wide Meanea money belt and the next one is a fancy tooled 4 3/4" for a Colt SA, with buckskin lining and a 3" wide Meanea money belt.   The 7 1/2" rig is pictured on page 121 in Packing Iron.


The next rig is an original J. S. Collins holster and money belt for a 5 1/2" Colt SA.  The holster is marked with the Miles City cartouche and the belt is marked with the Cheyenne cartouche.  It is a matching rig and dates to around 1885.


It is very rare to run across a maker marked rig of the 1849 to 1920 period in plain, without any tooling.  The vast majority of these shop made rigs had tooling of some sort, stamped with a simple border like the 7 1/2" Gallatin or fancy like the two Meanea rigs.  Of the dozens of maker marked holsters I've owned and the hundreds I've inspected, only a small handful were plain, without tooling.  Most of these were Slim Jims.  I now only own one maker marked SA holster and one unmarked Slim Jim that are without any tooling.  I hope this has been of some interest.

Adios,
Buck

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Buck,

Thanks for sharing this.  Great info and GREAT photos!!   It always helps me understand better.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy Buck,

Thanks for sharing this.  Great info and GREAT photos!!   It always helps me understand better.

As often happens, I agree with my esteemed colleague Dr. Bob.

Buck Stinson, Thanks!

[St. George]

Even the factory-produced holster for the dry goods suppliers have a simple, machine-rolled  border and often with a simple border line as well - but those 'are' pretty plain by comparison with the carved ones.

As we speak - I'm looking at a non-maker-marked double loop with a machine-stitched edge.

It left the shelf with only a single border line around the edge of the body, skirt and loops.

Then - one fine day in the bunkhouse, some waddie neatly carved a series of 'X's across the loops and carved a Buffalo Skull at the center of the holster body that looks like Charlie Russell's signature.

Maybe he got tired of 'plain'...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Buck Stinson]

I know what you mean.  Some of the bunkhouse art is beautiful and really tells a story.  I have a pair of Knox and Tanner, Rawlins, Wyoming marked wrist cuffs that have tiny ranch brands cut into every spot that isn't covered by the tooling design.  I'll bet there are near 40 different brands on each cuff.  Some of these I have actually found in my early Wyoming brand books.  It looks like they were carved with a pen knife of some such thing.  They sure are neat.

Adios,
Buck

[Horseapples]

So Buck, if you don't mind my asking, do you have any detailed photographs of the E.L.Gallatin tooling from the C1875 Cheyenne holster that you used to own?  I ask because I am attempting to reproduce a Gallatin 1870's A fork styled saddle and I would prefer not to use the Meanea wavey line and dot tooling on the borders.  I have experimented with stamps to reproduce the holster's tooling from the somewhat grainy Packing Iron picture but could do with a cleaner image before I try and file up a roller wheel.