LESSON LEARN'D

[Coffinmaker]

   Hey Everybody   

I learn'd a lesson today      Since I retired, there are things I don't pay a lot of attention to anymore.  I don't necessarily pay attention to different specifications, weights, balances, specific loads, stuff.  General Stuff.  Butt, I became intrigued.  There is a nationally known shootists emporium  whom advertises reaming Cylinder Chambers (Cap Guns) to .451, to utilize larger Balls (boy, you talk about Balls!!) to better engage the bore.  I thought, Humpff.  Never gave it thought until I tried an experiment that didn't go so good.  Then, Today, whilst on another Winter Project (We have seasons up here) I thought I should look into this referenced "improvement."  Never hurts to improve accuracy, right??

So I pulled out the drills and reamers and cutters and bevelers and had at it.  First to find a drill about the same as the bore.  That tells me what the chamber needs to be biggerer than.  Then we stick that drill shank into the Chamber to see how much bigger we gotta go.    SURPRISE    The Pietta chamber is already about 3 - 4 thou larger than bore diameter.  When the Ball is seated in the chamber and establishes the flat bearing surface, it exits the chamber sufficiently larger in diameter, no larger ball is needed.  It will stabilize just fine at OEM dimensions.  So I put the tools away. 

After putting the tools away, I immediately returned to our regularly scheduled program of Sofa Safety Monitor.  Tough job that, but I can handle it.  But now I need another project.  Oh, almost forgot, if you are having accuracy problems with your Pietta Cap Guns ..... It ain't the guns.  There just fine and dandy.  And if your loading .454 Balls (you have really BIG Balls), your wasting valuable lead going to entirely too much effort.  Soft .451 are plenty sufficient.

No.  I didn't slug the bore.  It doesn't matter what the precise bore dimension is.  So long as the ball coming out of the chamber is large enough to engage the rifling, and shaves a little ring when loading (to seal the chamber), the exact numbers are meaningless.  No need to stuff my poor head full of extraneous useless (enough of that already) information.

HAPPY MONDAY EVER BODY!!!

[Kent Shootwell]

Yea, but what about a 36 caliber?

[Coffinmaker]

   Well ..... Hi Kent   

Ah ... SasaFrasaFripaFrasit     Darn'd if I know.  Didn't even think about it.  Was so tickled about the 44s, I didn't even consider the 36s.  The thicken plots.  Humpff.

OK.  Now I gotta go back to the shop and fire up the heater (It's really cold in there), pull out a couple of 36s and see what's the what.  Now that you have asked the question, it's bugging me.  I do shoot a .380 diameter bullet (EPP-UG-36) in my 36s.  Haven't used 375 balls in forever.

OH.  Forgot.  We are only talking about Pietta.  I don't own a Uberti (I don't like Uberti).  the national known Gunplumber only offers this option for Uberti (I think).  Could be it's a Uberti only problem or consideration.

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[hellgate]

Coffinmaker,
I got the same itch a few years back for my Uberti Remingtons and ASM Colt's revolvers. UNFORTUNATELY I had a cheapo drill press vise that held the cylinders at a cant and I ruined a few before realizing I needed to stop and order some new cylinders. I got a couple reamed properly but with the recent migration of targets to poker table distances I haven't seen the need for accuracy anymore. The properly reamed pistols do recoil a tiny bit more than those with the smaller chambers but once the buzzer goes off I don't feel anything but joy and trepidation.

[Coffinmaker]

TA DA   

Kent, well here I are again.  Trundled down to the shop after I ran the heater for an hour.  Cold down there.  Anyway.  Pulled out a couple of my Pietta 36s and did the same check.  BINGO!!  Found a drill that was some snug in the bore, then ran it into the chambers.  Rattled around.  Some loose.  So I surmise, with the 36s it's the same.  The Chamber is some few thou larger than the bore.  Sufficient the Ball will engage the lands and fill to the grooves with no problem.  I've found ALL my Pietta Cap Guns are sufficiently accurate for the CAS game.  I see no reason to bother resizing the chambers.  And since I shoot "bullets" that drop "as cast" at .379 - .380 there is no need.

hellgate:  Know exactly what you mean.  Up close and personal, I don't need a Cap Gun to cut clover leafs at 25 Yards.  Understanding, I don't like Uberti Cap Guns and didn't like working on them.  As far as I know (second hand) the chamber undersize problem is inherent only with the Uberti built guns.  I know the guns I worked on ALL had undersize chambers but my customers didn't want the expense of reaming them out and then having some guns OEM stock and some altered for different ball diameter.

I did try and experiment of running "Barnstormer" bullets for a couple of matches.  I found the recoil was excessive, considering the Barnstormer only weighs 130Gr.  Recoil was much much harsher than my standard round Ball.  Found the extra diameter of the Barnstormer and extra bearing surface was really gripping the bullet.  With a "dry ball" test, I couldn't push a bullet out with the drill press.  Took a punch and hammer to get the bullet out so I figure the chamber pressure was sky high.  Quit that experiment forthwith.  I also found a distinct bevel at the chamber mouth produced severe fouling of the arbor and the arbor bore in the barrel lug.  I won't do that again either.  Cap Guns-R-Fun you betcha.

[Professor Marvel]

I did try and experiment of running "Barnstormer" bullets for a couple of matches.  I found the recoil was excessive, considering the Barnstormer only weighs 130Gr.  Recoil was much much harsher than my standard round Ball.  Found the extra diameter of the Barnstormer and extra bearing surface was really gripping the bullet. 

Ah My Dear Coffin
Have you ever tried the monster Kaidoh bullet in .44 ?
One feller blew the chamber on his ASM Walker using the Kaido and 777 ...

I also found a distinct bevel at the chamber mouth produced severe fouling of the arbor and the arbor bore in the barrel lug.  I won't do that again either.  Cap Guns-R-Fun you betcha.

Holy Moly, I will have to remember that....
and dig out all my remmy cylinders and my drills
and post the photo of the failed frankenruger
and flush or replace the water heater.

hmmm
yhs
prof marvel

[kwilliams1876]

Coffin man....
How do you normally set up a cylinder to be reamed? Wondering if you set them in a offset four jaw chuck on lathe, or set them up in a milling machine maybe on a rotary table and dial the holes in?
thanks
kw

[Crow Choker]

Jest for curiosity reasons, what do those 'Barnstormer' and 'Kaidoh' 44 bullets measure diameter wise and weigh. Coffin already advised the Barn was 130 g's-do they come in various weights? Get along fine with cast soft lead balls, just wondering.

 I shoot .454's in all of my 44 cap guns. Started out with my first Euroarms '51 Navy in 44 caliber back in '72 using .451's, but after starting to collect more 44's of various models, found that the .454's shaved lead better at the cylinder. On most of the models, if not all, the .451 balls didn't take much effort to seat. These were all Uberti cappers as when expanding my collection all of the Pietta's I saw at the time had poor workmanship IMO, i.e. poor wood-metal fit/poor metal-metal fit, just looked like some guy with poor workmanship skills put some kit gun together. They've improved since.

 The only Pietta's I have are a '58 Rem and a '51 Navy in 44. Both of these prefer the .454 ball. My first 36 cap gun, a '51 Navy Uberti, I started using .375's, but after hearing of some better results with .380's, I bought a box and tried them along side the .375's. Maybe I was hoping the .380's would perform better or I was just using better shooting form when firing them off, can't say, but the .380's did seem to perform better. A Navy branded '61 Navy 36 caliber capper gets along fine with the 380 balls, might cast some of the .375's up some day to see how it likes them-still have my .375 Lyman mold.

I've gone through alotta balls over the years and as Coffin posted, I ain't trying to do cloverleafs at 25 yards. My wife said I didn't have any balls due to the length of time it took me to 'pop' the question of tying the knot (she used more lady like terms). I'm a combat shooter perfected over years of 'riverbankin', point shootin', and 21 years wearing a badge, so minute of paper plate, milk jug, bean can, or river carp works for me. 

[Coffinmaker]

KW, Actually, I don't "normally" ream a cylinder.  I have used a reamer to correct some chambers on cartridge guns.  That is a "hand" job, not a machine job.  Same same to correct cylinder throats.  Using a throating reamer is also a hand job.

When I set up to do my percussion cylinders, I set up with a Machine Vice and a Drill Press.  First setting up the table to align with the chamber.  Didn't feel it was worthwhile so I dropped the idea.  Understanding, I shoot Pietta. 

Choker, the Barnstormer bullets I have are/were sized to 452 and weigh 129-130Gr.  I have never tried to run real large/heavy bullets in my Cap Guns.  When I load for my conversion cylinders, I run the Barnstormer bullets in Cowboy 45 Special cases.

Pietta Cap Guns, in the last 8 - 10 years are very well made indeed.  Pietta had trouble with multiple source parts suppliers and switched to making ALL of their parts in house.  Quality really improved.

[Crow Choker]

Pietta Cap Guns, in the last 8 - 10 years are very well made indeed.  Pietta had trouble with multiple source parts suppliers and switched to making ALL of their parts in house.  Quality really improved.

I've noticed that. Back around 2007 when I started to buy more cap and balls, the Pietta's I saw at guns shows and Cabela's were not of the craftsmanship that impressed me. The Uberti's I saw were nicer looking, hence bought them at shows and ordered from Taylors or Cimarron. Of course conversions and Open Tops were only available from Uberti. I wonder why Pietta never entered the conversion/OT market? The '58 Rem and '51 Navy 44 I have are well made, nice metal and wood fit/finish. The 'Traditions' revolvers (sad) I see at places like Cabela's, Bass Pro, Scheels, etc.-well that's another post altogether. Don't buy much (rare) from those outfits anyway-to high priced overall and their black powder offerings are to basic.

[Coffinmaker]

  C. Choker   

I can well understand.  The Brothers Pietta took over the business from Pappa San and had not/were not happy with their situation and reputation.  The quality of parts from their jobbers was horrible and they were not interested in going the way of ASM.  Enter heavy investment in CAD, CNC and well trained staff.  The result has been spectacular.  Pietta make a lot of guns that are Never Never.  Guns Colt never made but should have.  The entire lineup of Percussion Colt pattern guns are based on the 1851 frame.  ALL the parts to the lock works are the same with the exception of the length of the triggers.  Army Grip guns have a different length trigger than the Navy Grip guns.  Within caliber, most all the barrel assemblies are interchangeable.  The foregoing is true ONLY for recent production guns.  Older guns are NOT interchangeable.  Also, the 1862 Dance & Brothers 44 is a really odd duck.  The lock works are the same but the Cylinder And Barrel are WAY different.  Fun Guns though.

I use to have a little loose lief notebook I kept all the different dimensions and little notes in.  I can't find it.  Don't know where I put it when I retired.  Someplace real safe so I wouldn't lose it.  It's very safe.  Einstein said you really didn't need to remember things that were written down.  Just don't loose your notes. 

[Rebel Dave]

Well I did the drill bit "rattle test" in 3 of my late model Pietta .44s, (2-51 Navys + a 60 Army), and lo, and behold the cylinders are bigger than the bbl bore. It wasn't too scientific it was just a 7/16 drill bit which is .4375 in size. The bit rattled a lot more in the cylinders, than the bbl. Good to go.
Thanks Coffin Maker.

Dave

[Professor Marvel]

Well I did the drill bit "rattle test" in 3 of my late model Pietta .44s, (2-51 Navys + a 60 Army), and lo, and behold the cylinders are bigger than the bbl bore. It wasn't too scientific it was just a 7/16 drill bit which is .4375 in size. The bit rattled a lot more in the cylinders, than the bbl. Good to go.
Thanks Coffin Maker.

Dave

Ah My Good Dave -

there is a measuring trick some wise old barstitch taught me when one does not have sufficient tools -

- find biggest drill shank that fits  (it will probably rattle)
- wrap a single layer of scotch tape around it (not overlapping) and try the fit again.
- repeat until snug fit is obtained.
- measure gently with caliper, trying not to squeeze too hard.

this method can get you pretty darn close

OR
 
-squeeze lead ball into the chamber
- remove percussion nipple & poke it out
- measure.

:-)

prof mumbles

[Coffinmaker]

    Ah Ha my Good Perfesser   

Quite correct-a-mundo.  I myself utilize the push Ball in > > > push Ball out >>> measure shiny spot when I am real real curious.  Other wise, I just rattle de de da drill bit.  Now, in all honesty, I have just a slight CAVEAT when one reaches the "Push Ball Out" step. 

DO NOT USE a steel push rod of any sort to push the ball out.  If a steel rod is off axis, and comes into contact with the chamber walls, it WILL dig a divot right out of the chamber wall (Do NOT ask how I know this FACT).  If this divot is in the same area one normally seats the ball too, therein lies the perfect channel for Chain Fire     Aluminum or Brass rods ONLY please   

[greyhawk]

   Ah Ha my Good Perfesser   

Quite correct-a-mundo.  I myself utilize the push Ball in > > > push Ball out >>> measure shiny spot when I am real real curious.  Other wise, I just rattle de de da drill bit.  Now, in all honesty, I have just a slight CAVEAT when one reaches the "Push Ball Out" step. 

DO NOT USE a steel push rod of any sort to push the ball out.  If a steel rod is off axis, and comes into contact with the chamber walls, it WILL dig a divot right out of the chamber wall (Do NOT ask how I know this FACT).  If this divot is in the same area one normally seats the ball too, therein lies the perfect channel for Chain Fire     Aluminum or Brass rods ONLY please   

Hey Coffinmaker
Just read your first post on this - dunno how I missed it really - wanna disagree with ya - (just fer fun of course)

First the caveat,  I reckon they made the chambers of cap guns the size the are so we could fill em up with powder and put a chunk of lead in the end - I like roundy chunks of lead for cap gunz and full charge of proper powder.      So - semolina - creme o wheat - that stuff is FOOD - we sposed ta eat it fer breakfast not go sprayin it over the landscape from our sixshooters - got no place in a gun. (You dont like rugers an remys I dont like cereal in me gunz ok?)

So with that outa the way me an the boy (they both his actually)  had a coupla cap gunz that would shoot ok if ya did the breakfast food thing but not ok with a full charge --an 1860army and a walker - both old - both a little tired - so I started in to measure stuff (this after similar discussion here some time back) Cylinder wuz .451 we used .454 balls - that bit was ok - slugged the bore - .450 - should work - just ? - maybe ?  hah! bottom of grooves is .462 an it dont work!
I hate deep rifling like this in any BP gun - reckon its one of the great myths of the whole movement - gives the fouling someplace to go is the story - dumb story I reckon!
Lots of blokes believe that story tho - not this little black duck mate!

Made me a .458 reamer from an old bolt I found in the workshop - like ya said in tother post reaming the cylinder is a hand job - swaqed some 490 round ball down usin a .460 size die I made for the 45/75 Uberti
Loaded and shot the walker, full cylinder much better, much much better

Did some phone calls and found a pedersoli ball mold .464 (they make .458,.462,.464 an I reckon that says there more than just me doin this stuff) -- anyway made another reamer from another bolt

Heres a tip on old bolts - for other scroungers like me - a grade 3 (or maybe its a grade 5?) High tensile bolt with the three bars on the head of him is carbon steel, it turns nice and hardens real nice with heat and an oil quench - simple!!    a Grade 8 High Tensile bolt has got six bars on the head and its some kind of alloy steel - still can turn it with ordinary tools but it dont like my simple farmer style heat treatment. I thought I was bein clever when I bought a better bolt but the reamer I made didnt end up near as good - didnt harden as nice

Yep I reamed both those cylinders out to .462 (same as bottom of groove size) and we use the .464 ball - and we fill the cylinder with powder -

the Walker runs 65 grains of FFG, gets a lube soaked egg carton wad under the ball and a smidge of lube over the ball (just enough to fill the recess around the outside of the ball and then wipe as much off as ya can with yr finger     
The army loads full too but FFFg and no wad, just lube over the top - more lube than the walker

I had a lot of fun figuring out these loads proly shot a couple hundred up by the workshop doing it - both those guns loaded thusly will do close to ten ring size groups at 25 meters - IF - I can find a good enough rest position - if I can see good enough that day etc etc

So whats the point ? none really - We can tell Coffin maker is gettin bored in lockdown - I wuz sposed to go on tour with my work soon and thats off.  plenty here to do but taint the same as on the road.

The verdict is (I think) CM's rattly drill idea and half engaged balls works ok with some filler or wads to take up the space but with 6 or 8 thou airspace in the grooves and a proper dose of powder we likely getting quite a bit of blast up around that ball enough to turn that nice group into ten inches or so -------if you shootin foot square plates at ten yards ? who cares?

Stay safe (and sane) out there   
   

[Coffinmaker]

Stay Safe "and" Sane      Pardoners but it be way too late for the "Sane" part.  Truly appreciate the thought though.

Same same right back atcha.

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