Author Topic: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag  (Read 764 times)

Offline Badwater Dan

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • SASS #: 25001
38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« on: June 17, 2019, 06:26:37 am »
Greetings Gents,
25 years doing living history, 21 years shooting CAS. The time has come to tighten up how the shooting and authenticity interact with my living history camp..
Which means?  Joining NCOWS and getting a Posse formed up here in Montana.
Im sure this has been addressed here in the past but so far my searches have not answered my questions.
So untill I add 44/40 to my revolver/rifle calibers, can I use my 92 Rossi in 38/357 (feeds 357 flawlessly) and Ruger NV in 38/357. Depending on powder, either BP or smokeless, I load 38 short or long colt cases for use in the Ruger NV's , and pair of 61 Navy conversions. I also have a pair of 1873 EMF Hartfords, but the rifle is my main sticking point for now.

The rules are not crystal clear, so I ask....

1) Can I use 357 in my 92 and be legal in main match 4 gun categories?
Like I said, untill I add the 44/40 1866.

2) Can I shoot 38 short/long or special in my Vaqueros and be legal in main match 4 gun categories?

I do not want to be shooting NCOWS categories with unapproved calibers. All loads are equal to black powder equivalent of the psriod.
Thanks.
"Im not as fast as I once was...
But Im as fast once as I ever was...
and look good doin it behind the smoke"
Frontier Cartridge
Double Duelist

Offline Books OToole

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2423
  • Michael Tatham
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 08:19:10 am »
Your '92 is legal and I believe that .38 short/long are okay in the Vaquero.  I know that .38 special is okay.
If you need any assistance in getting a Montana posse formed let me know.  I'd be glad to help as would Deputy Marshall John Hoker.

Books
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 08:21:40 am by Books OToole »
G.I.L.S.

K.V.C.
N.C.O.W.S. 2279 - Senator
Hiram's Rangers C-3
G.A.F. 415
S.F.T.A.

Offline Badwater Dan

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • SASS #: 25001
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 10:12:06 am »
Thanks Books, I appreciate the offer.
What about the 357? I understand that it was not developed till 34/35.. The Short  Colt developed in the 1860's for "51 Navy" in conversions of .375 dia heeled bullet design, later being reduced to a.358 internal lube bullet. Followed in 1875 by the 38 Long Colt, again at .357-.358 dia internal lube bullet.. This was followed by the .38Sp with the .357 dia in 1898.
My point being that it was a natural progression to larger case volume,  it just took a bit longer to stretch that case to the .357 we know now with the very same bullet dia of .357. The bullet dia of .357 existed in our time frame of pre 1899, just not the longer case of the mag. Its just unfortunate that my 92 prefers the 357 length over the 38Sp length.
If I cant use the .357 till I get the correct caliber rifle, I suppose I could load the .358/125gr longer, setting depth and crimp below the crimp groove to squeek out a few hundreths in length to see if I can improve the 38 feeding reliability.
It would just be easier to use the 357 case and be done 😉
"Im not as fast as I once was...
But Im as fast once as I ever was...
and look good doin it behind the smoke"
Frontier Cartridge
Double Duelist

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3502
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
    • River City JAC
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2019, 11:16:53 am »
I'm sure .357 would be legit, as I've often shot with NCOWS members at local shoots, Regionals and the National, who use that cartridge.


RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275
http://www.cascity.com/posseprofiles/River_City_John

Offline Yuma Kid

  • NCOWS Editor (The Shootist Magazine)
  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2067
  • John "Yuma Kid" Irons
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2019, 12:05:29 pm »
Badwater Dan,
In my experience, .38 Rifle shooter's will shoot .357 cases loaded to .38 velocities if their rifle will not function with .38's. I assume you have tried to just use ,38's in your rifle? If they will function, that is the way to go.
Yuma
Keep Yer Powder Dry!

NCOWS #L129,  G.A.F. # 767, SASS #31302, NRA Life Endowment, Lancaster County Bounty Collection Agentcy #29

Offline Montana Slim

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 1864
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2019, 12:16:09 pm »
As far as the Rossi 92.... mine works well with 147 grain Lead bullets (intended for 9mm handguns) seated to OAL matching 357 Magnum rounds.
Many casters sell them in .357 or .358 diameters specifically with the cowboy shooters in mind.

Such as....
https://www.facebook.com/TwoAlphaBullets
Western Reenacting                 Dark Lord of Soot
Live Action Shooting                 Pistoleer Extrordinaire
Firearms Consultant                  Gun Cleaning Specialist
NCOWS Life Member                 NRA Life Member

Offline Johnson Barr

  • Berger Sharpshooters, KVC, Blue River Regulators, Double M Cowboys, GAF
  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
  • NRA Life, TSRA Life, NCOWS Life, NCOWS Senator
    • J Barr Texas
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2019, 12:32:22 pm »
Please refer to the list of 'Approved Cartridges' and you will find .38 Short and .38 Long Colt are there. One of the anomalies of NCOWS is the separation of 'Approved Firearms' and of 'Approved Cartridges'. Example: .45 Colt cartridge chambered for any lever action 19th century reproduction rifles or carbines did not exist in the 19th century. The .45 Colt revolver cartridge never was used in 19th century long guns, but it is on the 'Approved Cartridge' list. That being said; 19th century reproduction lever action long guns are on the 'Approved Firearms' list. Mix and match at your own desire. 
"Peace is that glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"  -Thomas Jefferson

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3502
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
    • River City JAC
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2019, 01:33:36 pm »
Oddly enough, the only caliber specifically mentioned on the current lists appears on the Unapproved List, - the Ruger .32 H&R.
From the By-Laws:

"Approved calibers and loads include any that were introduced prior to or during the period of 1865-1899 and that were
originally introduced as a black powder load. Common examples include but are not limited to: .22 rimfire, .32-20 WCF, .32 S&W Short, .32 S&W Long, .38-40 WCF, .44-40 WCF, .44 S&W American, .44 S&W Russian, .45 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .45-70 Government. Any cartridge designation that was not originally introduced as a black powder load will not be allowed except for appropriate firearms in the smokeless cartridge division only, or for specifically- designated shooting events. .38 Special/.357 Magnum and .44 Special/.44 Magnum cartridges will be allowed if loaded with black powder or with smokeless powder to black powder velocities."

(Underlined)

RCJ
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 01:36:52 pm by River City John »
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275
http://www.cascity.com/posseprofiles/River_City_John

Offline Badwater Dan

  • Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • SASS #: 25001
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2019, 12:59:30 pm »
Thanks to all for the replys. Yup, I looked at the Tally Book, the Approved and Unapproved lists, upside down and backwards. The .357 just was not clear, at least to this brain challenged ol Man. To answer a few Qs....yes, I've tinkered with .38's in many configs shy of crimping to a 357/125gr TCFP length. They all choke up on the chamfer leading into the chamber. The 9mm smooth slug seated to 357OAL seems the best solution. Again, thanks for the input. Looking forward to trying this new to me game. I've shoot under SASS governance for 21 years. I've made some of the most amazing friendships and good times over those years.
I have now noticed a new wave of shooters joining SASS. What I find strange is the complete lack of historic interest or firearm background in this new group coming in. Just follow a few of the FB pages like S.A.S.S. and Cowboy Action Shooting.
I understand being new to any sport and the learning curve, but when it comes to firearms, that type of inexperience raises arm hair and tightens sphincters. Especially when they have never even shot a match, but are going out and buying full blown short stroked race long and wheel guns. Guys with this lack of experience buying Dillon 650's and have never spent time on an old single stage understanding each step of the reload process.
Sorry, but when I add all that inexperience and more money than sense, I feel accidents coming. Those short stroked 73's are capable of 1.8 - second ten round strings. For an unexperienced shooter/reloader, that's spooky shit. The only brakes that rifle has is the brain....combine that with never hearing a squib load, and these dudes are emulating their "go fast" hero's.....
Well, you tell me. I think it's time to pitch the wall tent, and shoot with NCOWS pards who enjoy all aspects of what we do.
My apologies for soapboxing on my own post.
"Im not as fast as I once was...
But Im as fast once as I ever was...
and look good doin it behind the smoke"
Frontier Cartridge
Double Duelist

Offline River City John

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3502
  • Mr. & Mrs. John Covert
    • River City JAC
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2019, 03:30:54 pm »
Badwater Dan, welcome to the fire!



RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275
http://www.cascity.com/posseprofiles/River_City_John

Offline Tascosa Joe

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2410
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2019, 07:38:38 am »
Welcome to the camp.  Where are you in MT?  I get to the Bozeman area from time to time.
T-Joe
NRA Life, TSRA Life, NCOWS  Life,

Offline bear tooth billy

  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
  • NCOWS Senator
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2019, 06:39:11 pm »
B.D. sounds like you have found the right group. At the recent
National shoot, I shot in the originals class, I used a 137 year
old 73 Winchester in 44/40, and a 51 navy shooting 38 heeled
bullets in 38 long colt cases. I like shooting calibers that ''WERE
THERE"  BP of course,


                           BTB
                           
Born 110 years too late

Offline Johnny McCrae

  • Bristol Plains Pistoleros, Sweetwater Regulators
  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2753
  • The older the violin, the finer the music
    • Johnny McCrae
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2019, 08:32:41 pm »
Best wishes on starting a NCOWS Club in Montana. It will be a rewarding venture. I've driven my Harley thru Montana many times on my annual Sturgis trip. Beautiful country!

My 1866 Uberti Winchester is very sensitive to over all length. Like  Montana Slim does, I use a 9mm 147 grain truncated cone bullet sized to .357". This gives an OAL of 1.555" using a standard .38 Special case. This bullet has no crimp groove and is crimped on a flat area (see drawing). This setup has been trouble free.
https://www.snscasting.com/9mm-147-gr-fp-9mm_147fp/
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 06:13:38 am by Johnny McCrae »
You need to learn to like all the little everday things like a sip of good whiskey, a soft bed, a glass of buttermilk,  and a feisty old gentleman like myself

Offline OklaTom

  • NCOWS Judge, NCOWS Life 172, GAF 719, SASS 73114, NRA Life, TSRA, Berger Sharp Shooters, Blue River Regulators, Kansas Vigilance Committee, Double M Cowboys
  • NCOWS
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2209
  • Bryan Buck
    • 3B Shooting Supply
Re: 38 Short/Long/Special & 357mag
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2019, 12:41:04 am »
Greetings Gents,
25 years doing living history, 21 years shooting CAS. The time has come to tighten up how the shooting and authenticity interact with my living history camp..
Which means?  Joining NCOWS and getting a Posse formed up here in Montana.
Im sure this has been addressed here in the past but so far my searches have not answered my questions.
So untill I add 44/40 to my revolver/rifle calibers, can I use my 92 Rossi in 38/357 (feeds 357 flawlessly) and Ruger NV in 38/357. Depending on powder, either BP or smokeless, I load 38 short or long colt cases for use in the Ruger NV's , and pair of 61 Navy conversions. I also have a pair of 1873 EMF Hartfords, but the rifle is my main sticking point for now.

The rules are not crystal clear, so I ask....

1) Can I use 357 in my 92 and be legal in main match 4 gun categories?
Like I said, untill I add the 44/40 1866.

2) Can I shoot 38 short/long or special in my Vaqueros and be legal in main match 4 gun categories?

I do not want to be shooting NCOWS categories with unapproved calibers. All loads are equal to black powder equivalent of the psriod.
Thanks.

As Judge, I?ll step out and say if your rifle (it?s approved) will not feed 38 Spl cartridges, as some Rossi?s fail to do, loading 357 brass to get your length, but loading to 38 Spl specs is OK. Happens a lot.

On the 32 H&R, it is not the caliber that is on the unapproved list, but the small frame Ruger Single Six revolver chambered for that round that is unapproved. We have found no solid evidence that small frame Colt-like single action revolvers were available prior to 1899.

Your Ruger NVs and the 38 Long and Short are approved.
"I druther have a pocket full of rocks than an empty gun..."

OklaTom@att.net