Author Topic: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?  (Read 1434 times)

Offline Doug.38PR

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Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« on: April 13, 2019, 11:58:32 pm »
I am trying to fit a new cylinder stop/bolt.

Forgive me if I misuse terms.  I am using a dremel with sandpaperroll very easy and very slowly, to round/smooth the underside of the right hook that it completely clears the swivel bump that it rides on and is released from when the hammer drops so that it can fully reset.   

I am also carefully trying to round the bolt?s sharp edges to match the old broken one using my caliper as a go by until there is non play or movement in the cylinder notches. 

I am being extremely slow and careful.  (Meaning every slight touch I make I follow with reassembling the innards of the gun and seeing how they cycle)

Am I doing this correctly?

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2019, 11:00:07 am »

No.

Online 45 Dragoon

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2019, 11:27:29 am »
    What Coffinmaker said!

  That is called the bolt pickup surface. It's where the hammer cam (not swivel) resides when the hammer is at rest. When the hammer is cycled, the cam forces the left (not right) arm ( some call it a leg or tine) to move up which lowers the bolt head. Too much clearance at that surface can allow the cylinder to remain locked as the hand tries to rotate the cyl. ( this is more true for single fingered hands, two fingered hand actions are more forgiving).

  Also, I wouldn't "round" sharp edges to match the old, broken, worn out bolt. You'll likely end up with a brand new, worn out bolt.  The bolt head sides need to remain parallel , the tall side edge (leading edge) can be broken (just to keep from scraping the cyl.) and the short side (trailing edge) can be broken as well.

  Bolt timing can be done after checking that full cock and cyl. lockup happen simultaneously. This is a function of hand length. If it was correct before, then it's ok but if it needs correcting,  now is the time to fix it. Otherwise, you'll have an out of time S.A. with a new bolt.

   This is just very basic setup notes and as "simple" as S.A.'s are, there is quite a lot to setting one up correctly. Correctly can lead to a lifetime of service. Getting one to "function" will eventually need it again.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 11:29:54 am by 45 Dragoon »
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2019, 01:25:31 pm »
    What Coffinmaker said!

  That is called the bolt pickup surface. It's where the hammer cam (not swivel) resides when the hammer is at rest. When the hammer is cycled, the cam forces the left (not right) arm ( some call it a leg or tine) to move up which lowers the bolt head. Too much clearance at that surface can allow the cylinder to remain locked as the hand tries to rotate the cyl. ( this is more true for single fingered hands, two fingered hand actions are more forgiving).

  Also, I wouldn't "round" sharp edges to match the old, broken, worn out bolt. You'll likely end up with a brand new, worn out bolt.  The bolt head sides need to remain parallel , the tall side edge (leading edge) can be broken (just to keep from scraping the cyl.) and the short side (trailing edge) can be broken as well.

  Bolt timing can be done after checking that full cock and cyl. lockup happen simultaneously. This is a function of hand length. If it was correct before, then it's ok but if it needs correcting,  now is the time to fix it. Otherwise, you'll have an out of time S.A. with a new bolt.

   This is just very basic setup notes and as "simple" as S.A.'s are, there is quite a lot to setting one up correctly. Correctly can lead to a lifetime of service. Getting one to "function" will eventually need it again.

Ok. I?ll stop for now before I ruin the bolt.

The bolt head on the old one is fine.  It didn?t wear out.  It was the arms that broke.  That?s why I was using the bolt as a go by.

But anyway, when I work the action with the new bolt as it is now, when tge hammer is let back down, the arm doesn?t quite clear the cam and this it cannot lift and lower the bolt when you try to cock it again.  If the hammer drops, the vibration usually causes it to snap back into place clearing the cam, but that is obviously not correct.  I thought l, apparently wrong, that the underside of the arm needed to be taken down or polished a little but not so much that it causes the bolt to not lower before rotation begins.
The hand/paw is fine.  It is still timed with the gun.  It is the new cylinder stop that is the problem.

Sounds like I may need to get Jerry K?s Colt Single Action Revolvers shop manual

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2019, 02:30:53 pm »

Sounds like I may need to get Jerry K?s Colt Single Action Revolvers shop manual

May?? 

YES

Offline Crow Choker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2019, 04:55:47 pm »
What Dragoon and Coffin said!!! Get a JK book and put down the Dremel Tool. For what you need to do with fitting the bolt needs to be done with files and/or stones and/or various grits of paper. Dremel's have their place, not in fitting your bolt. A lot can be done with nothing but a file, using various grades if you have them and/or how much pressure you put on the metal when filing. Stones and abrasive paper for touch up when/where needed. Dremel's can take to much off when not needed, learned that 45 years ago with my first one and have seen and heard a lot done by others.
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Online 45 Dragoon

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2019, 04:56:24 pm »
^^^ this fer sure!

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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2019, 06:03:34 pm »
I just ordered the book.

 An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a dremel.  I tried using a basic file 15 year ago the first time and felt like I was using a hammer to drive a screw into a pair of glasses.  Ended up just making a mess.  The dremel with a light sandpaper roll felt very gentle and could carefully be done.
So what kind of stones do I need?  (Something else to go buy)

Offline Major 2

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2019, 12:31:59 pm »
"An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a Dremel"

That's like asking a proctologist to pratice brain surgury ...just the WRONG tools.

The cloest a Dremel should get to a gun, is the next county away !

CERAMIC STONE FILE SETS @  https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/stones/gunsmith-s-premium-ceramic-stone-file-set-prod797.aspx

Or you can find a Ceramic stone set at Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Ceramic-File-Set-Pouch/dp/B0002IXQLK/ref=sr_1_2?hvadid=3527312888&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&keywords=gunsmith+stones&qid=1555349381&s=gateway&sr=8-2




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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2019, 02:34:00 pm »
I've fitted a couple over the years.  I can't remember doing more than a little honing.  Hone a little .  Check. Hone a little more.  Check.  It would be real easy to take off too much and there is no reasonable way to put it back on.

Here is another training source.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014212675/american-gunsmithing-institute-agi-technical-manual-and-armorers-course-video-colt-single-action-revolvers-dvd

Rather pricey.   Maybe one on eBay?

The only way I can see a Dremel tool could be used is with a polishing wheel.  Even then it's better to use stones to keep surfaces flat.

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2019, 05:41:25 pm »
"An SCV reenactor i know told me to use a Dremel"

That's like asking a proctologist to pratice brain surgury ...just the WRONG tools.

The cloest a Dremel should get to a gun, is the next county away !

CERAMIC STONE FILE SETS @  https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/stones/gunsmith-s-premium-ceramic-stone-file-set-prod797.aspx

Or you can find a Ceramic stone set at Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Ceramic-File-Set-Pouch/dp/B0002IXQLK/ref=sr_1_2?hvadid=3527312888&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&keywords=gunsmith+stones&qid=1555349381&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Just ordered a $20 triangular stone.  Thank you.  I can't see any reason I shouldn't be able to figure this out.  I get tired of having to send guns to a gunsmith halfway across the planet or take it to town to a local smith for 2 months.

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2019, 05:42:49 pm »
I've fitted a couple over the years.  I can't remember doing more than a little honing.  Hone a little .  Check. Hone a little more.  Check.  It would be real easy to take off too much and there is no reasonable way to put it back on.

Here is another training source.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1014212675/american-gunsmithing-institute-agi-technical-manual-and-armorers-course-video-colt-single-action-revolvers-dvd

Rather pricey.   Maybe one on eBay?

The only way I can see a Dremel tool could be used is with a polishing wheel.  Even then it's better to use stones to keep surfaces flat.

I do have a polishing wheel with it.  I want to do this myself without sending it to gunsmiths.  This old single action pistols have parts that break all the time.  While some are drop in, other's like the bolt require more attention.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2019, 08:28:25 pm »

Well Doug ...... Let me be Frank.

Some of us went to school.  Then we spent several YEARS learning how to do what we do.  We also spent several THOUSANDS of dollars on dedicated tools.  Also to learn which tool work for the types of work that we do.

You then expect us to impart all those years of knowledge, experience and SKILLS to you in just a few paragraphs ??  Really ??

Online 45 Dragoon

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2019, 08:38:44 pm »
   Well Doug, your the one asking "how to"  and the ones that do the "how to" probably wouldn't mind helping so much if you didn't feel the need to express how "simple" the action is and that you should be able to figure it out (as I said, you're the one asking .  .  .  .   it's a thinker )!!  I can understand wanting to "know how"  but your "bedside manner" is  well .  .  .  . 
  The only "drop in" parts are the hammer and trigger, everything else is "slave" to the "program" those two parts present. As far as parts that " break all the time" , there are "things" one can do to those parts to keep them from breaking. Not to mention, spring tension is paramount to parts life and how to dress those. Polishing surfaces is fine but knowing "how" without rounding over critical edges that "un-do" everything you wanted "to do" is counter productive.  Dressing the bolt head to track into the locking notch is important for preventing cylinder throw-by as is bolt head configuration. The shape of the hand (and length of) is important (and the difference between a 6 shot and 5 shot cyl setup!). Is that hammer cam OK? Is it too tall? Is the bolt arm sliding off the side of the cam? (Is it supposed to?) Does it need thinning? Why?   How do you keep it from breaking? 
   I say all this just to say as simple as 4 parts and some springs can seem .  .  .  .  it ain't really .  .  .  . it mostly depends on what you want to end up with!

  As a caveat, I was taught NOT to use stones. Learn to use files and then a dremel .  .  . 

Mike

Hmmmm .  .  .  .  is there an echo?! Lol!!!!  (Ya beat me Mr. Coffin !)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 09:48:45 pm by 45 Dragoon »
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2019, 11:24:50 pm »
Well Doug ...... Let me be Frank.

Some of us went to school.  Then we spent several YEARS learning how to do what we do.  We also spent several THOUSANDS of dollars on dedicated tools.  Also to learn which tool work for the types of work that we do.

You then expect us to impart all those years of knowledge, experience and SKILLS to you in just a few paragraphs ??  Really ??

I?m not expecting nor planning to be told how to make a Python.  I?m just looking to do fixes on relatively fundamental things.

What is the purpose of this forum room than to seek help solving problems?

I?m not meaning to offend or belittle.  I guess what I?m trying to say is:   I don?t mind paying a mechanic to change my oil or tire (things that frequently have have to be done) , but if I have to send my car off and wait six months...I?d rather just do it myself. (Which you can do if you have the fundamentals)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 12:25:36 am by Doug.38PR »

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2019, 11:47:52 pm »
   Well Doug, your the one asking "how to"  and the ones that do the "how to" probably wouldn't mind helping so much if you didn't feel the need to express how "simple" the action is and that you should be able to figure it out (as I said, you're the one asking .  .  .  .   it's a thinker )!!  I can understand wanting to "know how"  but your "bedside manner" is  well .  .  .  . 
  The only "drop in" parts are the hammer and trigger, everything else is "slave" to the "program" those two parts present. As far as parts that " break all the time" , there are "things" one can do to those parts to keep them from breaking. Not to mention, spring tension is paramount to parts life and how to dress those. Polishing surfaces is fine but knowing "how" without rounding over critical edges that "un-do" everything you wanted "to do" is counter productive.  Dressing the bolt head to track into the locking notch is important for preventing cylinder throw-by as is bolt head configuration. The shape of the hand (and length of) is important (and the difference between a 6 shot and 5 shot cyl setup!). Is that hammer cam OK? Is it too tall? Is the bolt arm sliding off the side of the cam? (Is it supposed to?) Does it need thinning? Why?   How do you keep it from breaking? 
   I say all this just to say as simple as 4 parts and some springs can seem .  .  .  .  it ain't really .  .  .  . it mostly depends on what you want to end up with!

  As a caveat, I was taught NOT to use stones. Learn to use files and then a dremel .  .  . 

Mike

Hmmmm .  .  .  .  is there an echo?! Lol!!!!  (Ya beat me Mr. Coffin !)


I am not intending to offend or belittle y?all?s work or skills (if that were the case, I wouldn?t be here)

This would be about the third or fourth bolt I?ve had in the gun for 18 years.  I?ve been told the bolt (the arms) just break relatively quick (like the hand spring or the bolt spring or even the main spring). I had a smith in Houston touch up the action and give it a good cleaning about 12 years ago.

Either I?ve been taking it to bad gunsmiths in the Houston area over the years that don?t know what they are doing or talking about regarding SA revolvers (and I won?t say that?s not possible) or the above statement is true.

I enjoy shooting, reloading and even tinkering with my guns.  When something breaks, I get damn tired of having to run out, spend time finding a gunsmith or sending it half the planet away just to fix a little_________ and have the gun gone for six months.

Bolt springs, main springs and hand springs on SA and DA colt type guns are relatively simple to deal with and require little, if any, modification.  I?ve successfully dealt with all for years. 

If fitting a bolt/cylinder stop is something relatively simple (compared to, say, a SW DA or, God forbid, a Colt DA) that a man can do at home on his own time, with a little patience, I?d rather learn how.   

« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 11:56:09 pm by Doug.38PR »

Offline Major 2

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 06:12:27 am »

  GUN on the work bench ....
 A DREMEL TOOL on your work bench?  Your gun ? any gun ?

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2019, 10:53:29 am »

"The Open Range" has been a "Read Only" site for several years.  On the site resides a tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger for the set up of "Open Top" type guns to include Pietta.

Add that tutorial to your new Kuhnhausen book.  Read both.  ALOT!!

Offline RRio

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2019, 02:56:20 pm »
"The Open Range" has been a "Read Only" site for several years.  On the site resides a tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger for the set up of "Open Top" type guns to include Pietta.

Add that tutorial to your new Kuhnhausen book.  Read both.  ALOT!!
 
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Offline Crow Choker

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2019, 03:06:02 pm »
Geez guys, ya could have used a little more friendly talk with the OP . Talk like that drives CAS site members away from the forum. Always found a little 'finesse' goes a long ways. JMO and experience.

 Yep-Pettifogger's info is top shelf. It can also be found on the Darkside site on this forum under the Dark Arts approximately half way down titled "Tuning the Cap and Ball for Competition'. It is Pettifoggers Open Range info posted by Noz.
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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2019, 06:47:04 pm »
The cylinder bolt looks to be a simple part.  But it interacts with the timing of everything else.  I've spent hours going step by step getting a bolt fitted.  If I had more experience,  this process wouldn't take so long because I could more quickly identify areas that needed adjustment and how much.  Most of the fitting and testing require the gun being assembled and taken apart again.  It's not the kind of project you can walk someone through on a forum.

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 10:21:36 pm »
"The Open Range" has been a "Read Only" site for several years.  On the site resides a tutorial by Larsen E. Pettifogger for the set up of "Open Top" type guns to include Pietta.

Add that tutorial to your new Kuhnhausen book.  Read both.  ALOT!!

Started looking it over earlier.  Very interesting read and just what I need, thank you.

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 10:31:44 pm »
The cylinder bolt looks to be a simple part.  But it interacts with the timing of everything else.  I've spent hours going step by step getting a bolt fitted.  If I had more experience,  this process wouldn't take so long because I could more quickly identify areas that needed adjustment and how much.  Most of the fitting and testing require the gun being assembled and taken apart again.  It's not the kind of project you can walk someone through on a forum.

I know!  You?re sitting there with the grips off, working the action wrapping your mind around everything going on.  It?s not as complicated as a double action Colt, but it is still a bit of concentration and care.

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2019, 11:47:46 pm »
So many people poo poo on dremels but they certainly have their place. Those that do damage with one just don't know what they are doing or are careless and are probably not using a variable speed with the right attachments.

You can do justs as much damage with the wrong file or stone and a dremel will do in a couple seconds with the right polishing wheel and compound that you can do in several minutes with stones or polishing clothes.

I don't know how many tubs of elbow grease dremels have saved me knifemaking and from that experience of filing and polishing with them yes I don't hesitate to use one on a gun part under the right circumstance.

I have all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing surfaces when knifemaking that work perfect for certain gunsmithing applications.

The trick knifemakers today know but apparently no gunsmiths know is to use foot controlled switches. Never lay the part against or remove the part from a moving wheel or cutting tool, you fixture everything up or have it held snug at the right angle and braced before touching the power and then you touch the power on and off. This way the abrasives only touch at the appropriate angle and the right area of the part. Touch and measure, touch and measure, just like using a file or stone except when using a machine you don't have to take several strokes and then accidently take one mislick messing up the whole few before that.

No different than the equation of which is more accurate, taking a few thousands off of a machined surface using a flat file or a mill or surface grinder? I think we know which is more accurate. Speaking of that, yes I even have surface grinders retrofitted to use grinding wheels and belts.
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Offline greyhawk

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Re: Fitting 1851 pietta cylinder stop?
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2019, 01:27:23 am »
So many people poo poo on dremels but they certainly have their place. Those that do damage with one just don't know what they are doing or are careless and are probably not using a variable speed with the right attachments.

You can do justs as much damage with the wrong file or stone and a dremel will do in a couple seconds with the right polishing wheel and compound that you can do in several minutes with stones or polishing clothes.

I don't know how many tubs of elbow grease dremels have saved me knifemaking and from that experience of filing and polishing with them yes I don't hesitate to use one on a gun part under the right circumstance.

I have all kinds of special fixtures made for polishing surfaces when knifemaking that work perfect for certain gunsmithing applications.

The trick knifemakers today know but apparently no gunsmiths know is to use foot controlled switches. Never lay the part against or remove the part from a moving wheel or cutting tool, you fixture everything up or have it held snug at the right angle and braced before touching the power and then you touch the power on and off. This way the abrasives only touch at the appropriate angle and the right area of the part. Touch and measure, touch and measure, just like using a file or stone except when using a machine you don't have to take several strokes and then accidently take one mislick messing up the whole few before that.

No different than the equation of which is more accurate, taking a few thousands off of a machined surface using a flat file or a mill or surface grinder? I think we know which is more accurate. Speaking of that, yes I even have surface grinders retrofitted to use grinding wheels and belts.

Cliff
You got my attention 
(I use a Dremel a lot - just try to not admit it in the presence of Coffin Maker type people) 
How do I set up the foot control - bearing in mind I am cheep and would envisage using something like a cast off sewing machine controller - do we vary the feed in power and the Dremel takes that allright? I agree that most of the damage seems to occur approaching and leaving the work and as well we (or I do) tend to run the machine too slow a lot of the time because of the delay time in switching on and off. Have been using the cable drive extension shaft on mine recently - shoulda done a lot more of that too .
cheers
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