Author Topic: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?  (Read 807 times)

Offline PJ Hardtack

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RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« on: January 13, 2019, 05:47:25 pm »
Which do you guys recommend?
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2019, 07:19:11 pm »
Absolutely RCBS. I started with Lyman dies, which failed to size the brass properly. It created zero neck tension and the bullets were held in place only by the crimp. For that reason, the bullets could be spun around in the loaded cartridges. I will admit that it didn't create a serious problem, but it bothered me enough that I bought a set of RCBS dies, which work to my satisfaction. I have heard that Lyman dies are relabled 50-70 dies, but I can't confirm that.

Just my (rather strong) opinion.

CC Griff
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Offline El Supremo

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2019, 08:14:53 pm »
Hello:

According to Threads and Posts here, some older Lyman 56-50 dies may have been shortened 50-70 ones, but recent ones might be ok. I don't know how to tell them apart.

I HAVE three Lyman 50-70 bullet moulds with the SAME bullet number on them.  The profiles on the bullets are visibly different, having been cut with different cherries.  Lyman changes things.

I have no recent experience with RCBS 56-50 dies.  
Loved RCBS years ago, but now some RCBS stuff is from ASIA and that person in customer service may not know about 56-50 chamber variations.

Remember that the Armisport 56-50 chamber can be different dim's than original Spencer chambers.
So can the die set maker indicate which chamber the die set is for?  

CH4D makes three different chamber sets:
Original. Armisport. Custom cut TIGHT for RMC cases with a Pacific Tool, piloted carbide reamer.  
A big part of the dimensional variation is the taper IN THE CHAMBER.

There have been variations in the chamber dimensions of Armisport 56-50 Spencers over many years, which when combined with the inside taper in Starline brass make for issues.
Both are manageable, but take some attention.  

Supposedly the Starline brass was developed for ARMISPORT Spencers, but again chamber dim's vary.
The quality of Starline brass is very good. 

I use CH4D dies and custom RMC cases with tightly fitting bullets that are barely crimped. No spinning.
I anneal after each use using the "salt bath" setup from "BallIstic Recreations" in ALBERTA!

CH4D can profile the case neck expander plug to match the taper inside the Starline case AND the sized bullet diameter. No spin.

The issue there is a SIZED (straight-sided) bullet being pressed into a tapered wall case that is tighter at the base of the bullet than at the mouth. This can change the bullet's fit in the barrel!

Ok, all cases have "some" inside taper in the mouth area, but Starline's taper may be enough to squeeze the bullet base or not hold the upper end of the bullet well.  When the bullet is seated, it is gripped more at its bottom. Then, to seemingly tighten the looser mouth, too much crimp is imparted.  The tight crimp can push the case mouth BOTH into the bullet AND set it BACK a bit, which EXPANDS IT OFF THE BULLET JUST BEHIND THE CRIMP!  Hence spinning bullets.  

But some here report acceptable accuracy with spinning bullets in STARLINE cases.

Ideally, you could have a fellow shooter near you give you five loaded, Starline case rounds.  
If you are in the US, I can get some Starline, 35gr 3F Goex loaded rounds to you with HAZMAT shipping compliance, of course.  Guess your location might make that a challenge. 

Shoot them, wash well and send two to CH4D for a die set that matches both your chamber, case and sized bullet diameter that is approx .001" MORE THAN GROOVE DIAMETER for proper fit.
But, this usually take several months at CH4D.  

My suggestion is to find out which chamber the RCBS dies are for and if for an ARMISPORT, try them.
Check bullet DIAMETER for bore fit, case tightness and accuracy.  If ok for you, enough said.

If problems, let us know and if you want my test rounds, share here and consider calling Dave Davidson at CH4D.

Very respectfully,

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny






« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:05:48 am by El Supremo »
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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2019, 11:26:41 am »
I had a similar problem with my Lyman 50-70 dies - loose fitting bullets. I ended up buying a Meacham neck sizer that puts a distinct neck in the case and provides bullet tension. Problem solved.

It came with three collets to custom fit your bore size. Good deal. I may yet get a set of RCBS dies for 50-70 and of course 56-50.

I think I'm going to enjoy the learning curve loading for the 56-50 - if and when I have one in my paws. No word since last week on the progress of getting an import approval due to the US gov't hiatus.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline El Supremo

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2019, 12:49:41 pm »
Hello:

On test rounds to help die dimensions:

You being IN Canada puts me at odds the the "rcmp", but if you want some unfired, unprimed new Starline cases to load yourself, I can supply them in one shipment and some boolits that have worked in Armisports in another.

Regards,

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

Offline Oregon Bill

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 02:09:28 pm »
Since rejoining the Spencer rodeo recently, I ordered the RCBS three-die set and am tickled with it so far. No issues with neck tension.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 06:34:46 pm »
Getting Star Line 56-50 brass in Kanuckistan is not a problem - $182 per 100, plus taxes and shipping. And I've got a Rapine 375 gr mould.

I'm not going to invest in dies and brass until I'm told I have a carbine on the way.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 06:47:43 pm »
I think I'm going to enjoy the learning curve loading for the 56-50.

I also enjoyed learning to load for this carbine. In fact, I've been known to buy guns just for the chance to load a new caliber. The 56-50 has been fun, although not too difficult--I'd say that it's similar to loading a revolver cartridge. The Starline brass seems tough, so I do anneal it to reduce splitting case mouths, but it seems long lasting too (as long as I don't lose too many in the long grass).

CC Griff
Manager, WT Ranch--Coal Creek Division

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Offline Drydock

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 06:55:33 pm »
I have had both: the RCBS dies worked, the Lyman dies did not.  The sizing die would not reduce a Starline case to hold a .515 bullet to begin with, and the crimp was non existant.  We've had several fairly intense discussions about this subject here in the SSS.  The Lyman dies design predates Starline brass, and appears to have been developed to use shortened .50-70 brass.  The Lyman die design predates the replica Spencers as well, thus would be meant to be used with original Spencers of both 56/50 and 56/56 chambering, and the tolerances of those were very loose indeed.  I suspect if you are loading an orginal Spencer with cut down .50 Govt brass, the Lyman dies will work quite well.  Especially if using a .520 bullet.

But for the replica Spencer and Starline brass, you want RCBS.

As an informative aside, last year I purchased a replica .50-70 Sharps carbine.  I use the (formerly useless) Lyman .56/50 dies to load for it, and they work just fine!  
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:47:16 pm by Drydock »
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Offline Oregon Bill

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 08:24:19 am »
PJ, sorry to hear what you are paying for brass in Canada. $113 per 100 from Grafs, and on sale for $91 at Midway.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 10:58:34 am »
You're forgetting the dollar difference - .76 Cdn to the USD, plus taxes, import duty and S&H. It adds up. It's expensive to be a peon in Kanuckistan.

Midway does not ship to Canada and I believe the US ITAR regs disallow the shipment of brass to Kanuckistan. BACO cannot not ship me reformed .348 Win./.43 Spanish brass.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline El Supremo

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 12:46:50 pm »
Hello:

Kanukastan/Quebecistan, hmmm.

Eeneyweigh, kan a priv ate ceetezen heere sheep u casez, pleze?

Eye sheep lotz s2uff tu Blaine and freendz peekup dare.  Den hee keen sheep witenn CA two ewe, ok's?

Donkeychain.
Kevin

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 12:49:40 pm by El Supremo »
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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: RCBS or Lyman 56-50 Dies?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2019, 04:53:49 pm »
Through a friend, I do have access to a US mail drop box in Blaine, Washington. My next access date will be in February when my wife will going to the coast.

I had to have a Choate muzzle break/flash hider for a Mini 14 mailed there as it was on the 'no-no' export list, no sh!t!
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne