Author Topic: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP  (Read 31387 times)

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« on: September 30, 2007, 10:02:26 am »
Howdy!

Has anyone here tried making a ball (not slug) load using BP and a big roundball?  I've got a hankerin' ta try it.  Why?  Jes 'cause!  Why does a dog ... well - never mind!! ;)

Anyhoo, whut would it take?  I lean toward using a big ball (so far, all I've seen is .730") and a patch, but I GUESS I could use a plastic shotcup - but I don't wanna.  I want to do this as much as possible with materials on hand: I don't wanna have to go out and buy shotcups that I'd (probably) only use for this project.  I'm not a hunter, so the only reason to do this is to see how it works!  You know - PLAY!  ;D  (It'd also be an int'restin' load to use on our woodswalk - which is set up as a kind of huntin' scenario.

I jes' thought of sumpin' else:  whut would this kind of load do out of a Tula Coachgun that has fixed choked barrels? (RS = Mod, LS = Improved) I have practically NO experience using slugs or anything else shotgun related, 'cept for plinkin' ... and self defense.

Thanks, y'all.  phony "down-home" accent off, now  ;)
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2007, 10:12:45 am »
The old time factory ones just used a 0.730 ball and the card wads it takes to fill it up.  Accuracy was said to be quite good out of them, often much better than the Foster type slug, the so called rifled slug. 

Make darn sure you shoot those though in a gun that is not choked, one reason the ammo companies quit loading them, they can be a bit dangerous, esp. in a full choke gun. ;)
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Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2007, 10:27:02 am »
Well, it sounds like I won't be doin' it, then.  As I said in my original post, the Tula DOES have M-I/C fixed chokes - which I AIN'T gonna have bored out just for this experiment!  :D

Hmmm ... I wonder:  do ya think I could use a smaller ball, say .715"-.720" and a cloth wad and still get it to function?  I'd think that wad material would constrict easier, and therefore cause less pressure buildup than even the pure lead roundballs I'd use.

Still a bad idea?  I'm actually thinking of this for ranges between 30 and 75 yards.  Yeah - I know:  I'd make that coachgun look like an artillery piece for that range!  ;)
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"        

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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2007, 01:02:47 pm »
Measure the tightest choke and go just under that size and run it with out the patch, should do better than you think, shouldn't be any worse than an Ole Brown Bess, I think they run a 0.690 and they ran right at 12 guage.  Round balls tend to fly fairly straight. 

With that double though, it might take some doing to get them to shoot close together, use less powder if they shoot away, more if they cross, a whole 'nuther science to drive you nuts. ;D
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Offline Paladin UK

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2007, 01:03:04 pm »
SHB........

Pard, yer a man after my own heart!!!

`SPERIMENTIN`  Now thats what its all about!! ;D

Me `n NPGB tried a little ol test with duplex load consistin of ..

50gns FFG 6 .31 balls topped up with # 6 shot!!

Gotta tell ya we had ONE HELL OF A HOLE at 10yds!!! :o

Yessireee it wuz ..........  Bloody Brill!!
:D

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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2007, 01:22:12 pm »
A bore sized ball with 3 00 buck on top was a common load in old muskets for nasty close in work.  I don't have my referance material here but for you PUK that's 0.33 and I think you folks call it SSG size. ;)
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Offline Texas John Critter

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 06:00:50 pm »
I think I can get some .690's for ya Mr. Bailey if you can't locate them locally.  I either have them in the garage or I can get some from the guy who casts them for me.  I shoot them out of my 12 ga frontstuffer when I get a hankering for some close range swamp deer hunting.  They do the job!
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 06:29:06 pm »
PUK, I was in the "reading room" and checked, you Brits call it SG the Canuck call is SSG, you'd think we could all get along and call it the same thing. ;D 


BTW yer 0.31 are half way tween our 0 and 1 and closer to you LG since you don't seem to have one coparable to our 0, not surprising cause it was used mostly in 16 and over there you folks liked lighter shorter chambered 12's.  BTW pard if you have one a them 2 inch chambered 5 1/2 twelve gauge doubles you don't need, send it my way. ;D  Got a hankerin' to tey one instrad of my 28 gauge pump.

Hmmm, 54 caliber round ball should go through the skeet choke and have room for two, Jeff, see what you have done. ;D
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Offline Adirondack Jack

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2007, 09:13:41 pm »
Just be careful.  Yer gonna create pressures well beyond shot loads.  My old english fieldgun is stamped right on it (by the folks at the proof house) "not for ball"
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2007, 09:55:11 pm »
If it is a modern gun and you keep the charge of powder in the square load area copared to the weight of the ball you won't have any problem in a gun where the ball is smaller than the choke.  Also if the Egnlish gun you refer to has any choke in it the English proof laws require it be stamped that way since it is not safe for ball. 

Of course with the English guns you also get into the Paradox type for shot and ball, a whole nuther story that would be an interesting thing to play with, . slight choke and rifled in only the choke, these are sorta duplicated with the screw in rifled chokes you can get today, although I understand these have a tighter twist and are intended for the saboted slugs and not ball.
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Offline Oregon Bill

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2007, 12:57:53 am »
I wouldn't be terribly concerned about using a close-to-bore-size ball in an IC or M barrel in a MODERN gun. I would use dead soft lead, however. But I'm funny that way.

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 08:58:51 am »
With a modern choke set up for plastic shot cups (more open than older ones for card wads) you are dealing with 0.0010 for IC and 0.0020 for Mod.  Try to size a pure lead round ball that much in a die and see how much force it takes.  Remember this is hitting at a fair amount of velocity and with peressure behind it when you fire it.  I don't know if it would be that bad, but a scary unknown in my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 10:15:57 am by Delmonico »
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 09:59:50 am »
So yer saying a shotgun slug is riding on a cushion of air like a cannon ball?

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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 10:16:58 am »
Slim, do you mean a hollow based "rifled" slug?
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 10:43:23 am »
Nope, the un-rifled pumpkins.  ;)

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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2007, 11:43:08 am »
Acually both use wads like shot. ;)
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Offline Grizzle Bear

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2007, 11:47:50 am »
Since I have not seen any Magtech shells in 10 gauge, I presume we are talking 12, right?

A .690 ball is what you want.  They work fine!  The way I load them, is to load your powder charge, put a cushion wad on top of the powder.  Take a thinner card wad, I use a .125, and punch a hole through the center of it.  Load the card wad, place a ball on it, then load another card wad on top of the ball.  This way, the ball is centered, and flies pretty straight.

I have also made some buck and ball loads, with one roundball and 9 buckshot.  As I remember, only used about 50 grains of FFg, and still the recoil was.......um....SUBSTANTIAL!

Grizzle Bear

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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2007, 12:03:50 pm »
Oops, I forgot about the wad.  ::)

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Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2007, 12:43:02 pm »
Thanks for all the replies and interest, pards!

O. Bill - dead soft is the ONLY type of lead I'd consider.  And yes, my Tula, while imported back in the 70s or 80s (it still says USSR) is pretty modern steel and like most Soviet equipment, is over-built in the strength department.  A NICE feature, IMHO.  It is essentially the same as one of the newer imports, (Bounty Hunter II I think) but has some of the older styling details which I like.  (Slim wrist like old guns, dark red buttplate and pistol-grip cap, etc.  It even has some minor engraving - which is still on the newer imports, I think.  It's just enough decoration to make it look less than bare-bones plain.  The chrome lined barrels/chambers and short forcing cones are a nice touch.  [As an aside: the longer forcing cones are thought to be easier on the shooter, recoil-wise.  My old Stoeger had looong forcing cones, this Tula doesn't.  I can tell NO difference in felt recoil.  However, I have heard from learned folks that the longer forcing cones work better if your loads use a plastic shotcup, but if you use wads - like me - then you (I) can get good patterns with wads.  I've never had the opportunity to "print" my loads, so I can't say fer sure.]

Griz - yep, 12.  Thanks for the GREAT suggestion.  How big of a hole do you punch?  I assume (  ;) ) that is to center the ball, so to speak.  No cloth patches to make up for any bore differences due to the choke?  You didn't say, so I'd guess the top wad has no hole, correct?  How much powder are you calling a square load?  The same (approx. & by volume) 50 grs. for the buck'n'ball?   What I use now is a Lee adjustable shot dipper set at 1 oz for 2F or 3f (whatever is on hand) and either 1 or 1 1/8 oz of #8 or #9 shot.  Or whatever.  we haven't got any knockdowns yet, only swingers, but my load moves them right nicely!

Buck'n'ball!  Sounds like my NEXT project! 
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Offline Grizzle Bear

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2007, 01:36:20 pm »
Jeff:

Yes, the hole is just to center the ball.  Think I used a 5/16ths or 3/8th punch. No hol in hte over-the-ball card.

Don't remember what a .690 ball weighs, think I was using 70 or 75 grains og BP.

(No trouble hitting an IPSC silhouette at 75 yeards.)

If you want to try buck-and-ball, you should reduce the powder charge, so it doesn't beat you so hard!  I think the 9 OO buckshot weighs about the same as a ball, so  you have a double-weight payload.

GB
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Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2007, 01:56:18 pm »
I'm gonna try it/them!

Thanks, Rob!
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2007, 02:26:38 pm »
OK, did some scougin' through some notes, did some cipherin' on my telly-phone so I didn't have to plug my 1975 model digital calculator in since I don't have a 9 volt battery. (Never throw it away if it works. ;D)

Rond ball out of pure lead, figger the weight by this to come up with grs.  I think I stole this from General Hatcher out of his book.

Diameter in inches3 X 0.5236 X 2873.5  The 0.69 comes out 494 grs. rounded to the nearest gr or 1.13 oz, since it is a 14 gauge ball rather than the 16 gauge I said earlier, sounds right.  Gauge beeing how many pure lead balls of bore dia. you can get per pound.

Buckshot is 115 per pound which makes nine of them 548 grs rounded or 1.24 oz,

A right heavy weight load, no wonder it recoils a bit. ;D  Would be a right nice load for the guy on the right side of the stage coach. ;)
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2007, 08:06:40 pm »
I git ta ride shotgun!  ;D

Slim
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Offline Dick Dastardly

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2007, 09:07:42 pm »
Ho Slim,

Whut size round ball would yer 10ga be throwin'?  I know I kin load up 15 OO buck in 3-1/2" hulls for mine.

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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Makin' "Punkin' Ball" loads in Magtechs w/BP
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2007, 09:46:49 pm »
Dick, with a full choke a 10 should be able to shoot a 0.730-0.735 safely, as for weight that comes out 585 grs or 1.33 oz and a true diameter ball comes out 700 gr or 1.6 oz.  Round ball weight adds up fast as they get bigger.
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Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.