Practical advice on caliber selection and lessons from the world of archery

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

I recently have made inquiries into buying a buffalo gun and many of you have been of considerable help. Just for a moment I would like to share a recent response I made to Wolfgang on this issue. I have made a few revisions to the original email. My search still continues.
I am a little hung between a 45-70 and a 90. ( FOR ME, I find the 40 calibers and th 45-100 to the 50's to be more novelty rounds more for historical accuracy or as a conversation piece. Sure they are good and funtional, but not at all as practical as the 45-70 or 90) The more I study on it the less decided I become (you get so many opinions here, but the following is what I have concluded)
 With the 45-70, I win all of the way around.....reloading is cheap, factory ammo is cheap,can shoot smokeless if I prefer and can do about all I'd ever ask of it.The 45-90 just has that extra umph. But is it worth it? Can't just up and find ammo anywhere (in the event I am in Wyoming elk hunting and lose my ammo) and is smokeless ok? I think so, but in any round bigger and you pretty much need to go blackpowder only. I have to admit, I may want to shoot smokeless for hunting. I can go to longer cased rounds, but for no real gain as opposed to just sticking with 45-70 and shooting smokeless. If blackpowder becomes a requirement for me, I'll go all out and get me a muzzleloading long rifle of the Kentucky or Pennsylvania persuasion. Any personal thoughts on choosing between the 45-70 and 45-90?
 For me it is like debating over which is the best all around cartridge for North American game. Ya always get the same ones: 30-06,308,270,280,338, 7mag and on and on. Each opinion is based on one persons experiences and usually they're all concluded for the same basic reason, they had success and stuck with it so they must be right!!!!! (unlike me, I am often wrong) You can argue muzzle energy, velocity, trajectory all you want, but what I have found is  this, it all depends on what you are comfortable with, whether recoil is an issue, how good of a shot are you and the underlying fact that there will always be an instance where it is never enough. There will always be that one buff or that one bear that needs a half dozen shots from a .338 Winchester Magnum and still fights on!!!!!! Or that one monster elk that drops in his tracks with one shot from the lowly .243. Performance isn't guaranteed when hunting.
 Fred Bear killed everything from quail to elephant with his recurve. He had quite a statustical disadvantage as opposed to firearms. There are those that say "hunt elephant with no less than a 458 or a 416 Rigby" or "don't hunt Kodiak with no less than  a 338." But Fred Bear, Dan Quillian and so many others have done what those in the firearms world would find absurd and chose the world of archery against deadly game. For those hung up on numbers, hands down guns, the bigger the better, are the way to go. The gun experts would call the great archers a fool (had they only the statistics to look at), but the fact remains the archers have succeded. (Elmer Kieth must be rolling over in his grave each time an archer takes one of the "Big Five". In his world a bow and arrow comes nowhere near his statistical requirements. No disrespect to Elmer Kieth, but just how good of a shot and hunter was he anyways? By the numbers, great. But out-gunning an animal is no challenge. It just takes money, getting in close, point, shoot, little skill. But with a bow.... this argument is for another day) For just a moment lets you and I learn what archers have learned: when you know your equipment and your abilities, you will then know what you are capable of, often at the surprise of you and others. A particular cartridge will not make you a good shot. Practice will. Better equipment will not make you a good shot without practice.
By the way, in a recent poll, my right brain is 100% in favor of the 45-70 while my left brain is 100% in favor of all of the round my shoulder can take.

[Dai.S.Loe]

I for one am impressed with yor statement. I do believe in learning to use what one has available. In New Zealand we have no really dangerous game except wild boar and experienced hunters have taken those with well placed .22 shots, although the purist "pig hunter" here doesnt even do that but uses a few hunting dogs and a "sticking" knife to despatch the animal.

I have gone the 45-70 route as I agree it is cheaper than the alternatives. I have watched some so called "long range specialists" here shooting at 300 yards and consistantly missing. It is always blamed upon the equipment failing rather than the person pulling the trigger. 300 meters is not , in my opinion, long range and during my army training was concidered a distance for aimed shots. This was in the days when we used a SLR L1A! in .308 caliber and squad fire was considered feasible up to 800 yards.

The last cowboy match I was at had one scenario where you could engage the plates at about 25 yards or move up to about 7 yards and then engage. Most persons all moved up to the closer distance because they werent happy shooting at the "long" distance. I first learnt my pistol shooting at 25 yards in a UIT style competition club and I shot at the 25 yards. I used to shoot for groups at 300 yards with my Contender pistol in the UK at Long Range Pistol competitions.

In my own club I continaully stressed thatr the new shooters should learn the basics first and train at the standard distance of 25 yards. Too many of the plinkers would expend copious amounts of ammunition at 7-10 yards and think they had shot well. Not one of them could call their shots with any reliability.

I am not in any way saying that people on this board fall into that catagory only new shooters here and observed by myself.

Yes, bowhunters have taken dangerous game with their equipment, but there is a lot more to it than that. They have learnt other skills also. They have learnt stalking, they know their prey, they know intimately their equipment. They have spent hours fine tuning their skills in all aspects of hunting and when the time comes all that honing shines through.

A rifleman who puts the time and effort into his training, who learns his equipment, who learns to judge the conditions, who learns how to approach his intended target can be very accurate and deadly. The military calls these people snipers and specially selects and trains them. I am not that good. I am a plinker who wishes to learn to be better.

Thanks for this discussion. You have mirrored a lot of my own thoughts regarding some of the shooters here in NZ that I have met.

Dai.

[Bristow Kid]

This subject brings to mind one of my favorite quotes unfortunately I don't know who said it.  But it goes as follows "Fear not the man that owns many guns.  Fear the man that has few but knows how to use them".  I beleive in practicing with all guns I own.  I don't own a gun that I don't use at one point in time or another.

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[Ol Gabe]

Great discussion, Pards!
As in any hobby, there are some buzzwords that cover whatever the speaker wants to say, in CAS we see "...in the Spirit of the Game..." as one that has a lot of intent. In other Shooting Sports it might be "...be sure you have enough gun..." or something of that ilk. In Traditional Archery the phrase "Become The Arrow..." adds a Zen concept to the hobby by tasking the Archer to think where his Arrow is going to hit. How we apply various techniques adds to the overall enjoyment of the hobby, but many are 'natural' if only we allow them to be.
At the range next time try this: with targets set at 15, 25 & 50 yards for Revolver or Shotgun, 50, 75 & 100 for Rifle, take a shooting stance you like with your firearm held at your waist, close your eyes, open them and raise your firearm at the same time keeping your eyes on the target and as soon as the sights line up, shoot. Close your eyes and repeat the sequence at the other two targets. The first time you may not do well, but after a few rounds you'll notice a big improvement and how smooth and easy the flow has become.
Anthropologists claim this is a basic heriditary technique we inherited from our Hunter-Gatherer days eons ago; seek the food and harvest it. Some modern Sportsmen call the technique 'snap shooting' others 'instinctive shooting', I prefer to go with the latter.
Now think about it for a second, if you take your time and hold on aim you may or may not hit the target as you have taken a long time to acquire it allowing your instincts to relax. If you use the technique in Primitive (Stick & String) or Traditional (Recurve) Archery, you would knock an arrow, hold the bow at the ready at your waist, close your eyes, open, acquire the target while raising the bow and releasing the arrow in one smooth move. it WILL hit the target!
I know many of you probably use this method in various Shooting Sports such as Skeet, Trap, IPSC, etc., it has many names and many forms and they all work. In relation to this topic a 45/70 is the best all-around caliber to go with for all the reasons mentioned above, in addition, it can be used in the 'instinctive' manner far easier than heavier calibers. At the last CVR Big Bore Shoot they had a 'Bulls Eye' event where we shot off-hand at paper targets 100 yards out. OK, no big deal for a High Power rifle with a sling, etc., but take a 45/90 and try this off-hand with a gusting wind 10-15 mph coming over your right shoulder and it adds a degree of difficulty you hadn't planned on. Did I hit it? Proud to say I did with a Pedersoli 45/70, actually had 2 side-by-side hits in the Bull but missed a bunch, just plain dumb luck perhaps, but the technique does work; look at the target, raise the rifle, acquire the target through the sights and fire.
Give it a try and I think you'll be surprised how well you do with any firearm. Go with the 45/70 and you'll not be sorry, if you don't like it for any reason, the resale value is far higher than any other caliber and it'll go fast.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
Proud Family Sponsor of the CVR STRAND'S STAND MID & LONG RANGE SHOOT, June 23-25 & August 18-20, Prairie Fire Range, Ackley, Iowa. Hope to see you on the Firing Line!

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Pleased with the positive response towards my thoughts snd you guys have added even more insight into ones inner self I believe. I didn't think Zen and the study of primordial man would come to light on this board, but it is in fact a part of who we are as human beings and how we conduct ourselves in life. Every aspect of our actions stem from inside: pride, vanity, patience, impatience, diligence and so forth. Partaking in shooting sports requires putting a lot of focus and adhering to standards and practices that build upon our current capabilities and limitations. Fashion and trend has little to do with it, just tried and true principles, namely time and effort.
I am a horse owner and have noticed in some avenues of showing horses, whether it is halter , dressage, western pleasure, etc  you always have that one guy that really isn't a horseman, but has the money and where-with-all to buy a $100,000 push-button horse. He has no time in it, just money and a little trail time when he/she isn't running their multi-million dollar corporation. Yet they compete and win, with little sacrifice involved. They aren't horsemen. Just buying into a hobby and looking at the horse as an investment. That is why I stay out of shows. Just think if this or similar attitudes were brought into shooting sports. How soon they would be disappointed!!!!

[Delmonico]

One note, Fred Bear was not a fool, he always had a backup with a suitable rife for hunting large dangerous game.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Yes, I am aware he he did. I also wear a seatbelt when I drive, wear a helmet on a motorcycle, have plenty of insurance, wear proper hearing protection when I shoot and wear proper clothing and gear  when I weld. Not that I plan on anything happening..... But that is just a side note from my main point, that being knowledge and confidence in what you have and anyting in excess of your abilities is, well that, excessive. Some make decisions on needs others on , "oh that's cool, I'd like to have that and stand out." Then there are those in historical accuracy which I highly admire. My personal decision has been to stay away from more than I am capable of. Sure, I may get to shoot a few hundred yards more, but A) I don't have that ability B) the longest range in GA I have found is 600 Yards except for military bases. 45-70 will suffice. Still looking for that gun, still learning.
Back to Fred Bear, I became interested in him at quite a young age. I grew up hunting with bow and rifle. I have given up bowhunting, but I think I'd like to get back into archery for the sake of shooting alone, not hunting.( I prefer to stalk deer and haven't enough land to do so now. Public land has too many people ) Anyways, Fred Bear and Dan Quillian both are of great interest to me. Dan is in the Athens, Ga area and known for hunting with traditional long bows of English, Indian and African designs. He is more of a big game hunter.
As for exploits with a bow, the size of the game is of little significance. In fact , I have watched many a time Fred bear has shot duck, geese, quail, grouse and other birds on the wing, far more impressive that aiming at a 1000 lb target.
A testament to what practice will do. Amzing to see bird hunting with a recurve. I recently have seen a gentleman shoot clay pigeons from with a compound bow, which some will argue is harder than a recurve. I have to agree. Having shot both, the slower arrow flight for me is easier to judge and predict than the accelerated flight of the compound bow. Its just a matter of the time allowed to process information, then act upon it. A recurve allows you more of a lead. A compound with its flatter trajectory shortens that lead. In either case, you have to instinctively shoot.
By the way Mr. Del, I always enjoy reading yor responses. I must say I have learned much from your writings here.

[Marshal harpoluke]

Great discussion, Pards!
As in any hobby, there are some buzzwords that cover whatever the speaker wants to say, in CAS we see "...in the Spirit of the Game..." as one that has a lot of intent. In other Shooting Sports it might be "...be sure you have enough gun..." or something of that ilk. In Traditional Archery the phrase "Become The Arrow..." adds a Zen concept to the hobby by tasking the Archer to think where his Arrow is going to hit. How we apply various techniques adds to the overall enjoyment of the hobby, but many are 'natural' if only we allow them to be.
At the range next time try this: with targets set at 15, 25 & 50 yards for Revolver or Shotgun, 50, 75 & 100 for Rifle, take a shooting stance you like with your firearm held at your waist, close your eyes, open them and raise your firearm at the same time keeping your eyes on the target and as soon as the sights line up, shoot. Close your eyes and repeat the sequence at the other two targets. The first time you may not do well, but after a few rounds you'll notice a big improvement and how smooth and easy the flow has become.
Anthropologists claim this is a basic heriditary technique we inherited from our Hunter-Gatherer days eons ago; seek the food and harvest it. Some modern Sportsmen call the technique 'snap shooting' others 'instinctive shooting', I prefer to go with the latter.
Now think about it for a second, if you take your time and hold on aim you may or may not hit the target as you have taken a long time to acquire it allowing your instincts to relax. If you use the technique in Primitive (Stick & String) or Traditional (Recurve) Archery, you would knock an arrow, hold the bow at the ready at your waist, close your eyes, open, acquire the target while raising the bow and releasing the arrow in one smooth move. it WILL hit the target!
I know many of you probably use this method in various Shooting Sports such as Skeet, Trap, IPSC, etc., it has many names and many forms and they all work. In relation to this topic a 45/70 is the best all-around caliber to go with for all the reasons mentioned above, in addition, it can be used in the 'instinctive' manner far easier than heavier calibers. At the last CVR Big Bore Shoot they had a 'Bulls Eye' event where we shot off-hand at paper targets 100 yards out. OK, no big deal for a High Power rifle with a sling, etc., but take a 45/90 and try this off-hand with a gusting wind 10-15 mph coming over your right shoulder and it adds a degree of difficulty you hadn't planned on. Did I hit it? Proud to say I did with a Pedersoli 45/70, actually had 2 side-by-side hits in the Bull but missed a bunch, just plain dumb luck perhaps, but the technique does work; look at the target, raise the rifle, acquire the target through the sights and fire.
Give it a try and I think you'll be surprised how well you do with any firearm. Go with the 45/70 and you'll not be sorry, if you don't like it for any reason, the resale value is far higher than any other caliber and it'll go fast.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
Proud Family Sponsor of the CVR STRAND'S STAND MID & LONG RANGE SHOOT, June 23-25 & August 18-20, Prairie Fire Range, Ackley, Iowa. Hope to see you on the Firing Line!

 

I agree, 45/70 will kill anything I want to tackle at as far as I can see it. Don't need more.  Use tuned 1885 Browning high-wall--love it.  It is enough for me at this time Rio Salido has a max of 600yrds so ya don't need more.

P.S.  i have owned and shot Sharps, N Rolingblocks love em all.  The high-wall has the least recoil of the lot.

[Delmonico]

One can thank or curse gunwriters and gun rags for many of out ideas as to the power of a firearm, we use kinetic energy rated in ft/lbs.  Sorry this is just a number on paper, it's only danger is getting a paper cut from it.  Arrows or bullets kill in one of two ways, either by disrupting the central nervous system enough to shut off the heart and or brain or by hemorhage, which also shuts of the heart and brain.   

An arrow has a low kenetic energy, but a fairly large sharp broad head cuts lots of blood vessels and because of it's length it travels fairly deep into tissue.

Firearms get far more complicated because different bullets expand and penatrate differently and damage tissue in different ways.  Also their higher speeds cand create a shock wave that damage tissues and nerves they don't really touch.  But velocity can work against you also, the can expand a buttet or even destroy it before it has penatrated deep enough to make a clean quick kill.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

One can thank or curse gunwriters and gun rags for many of out ideas as to the power of a firearm, we use kinetic energy rated in ft/lbs.  Sorry this is just a number on paper, it's only danger is getting a paper cut from it.  Arrows or bullets kill in one of two ways, either by disrupting the central nervous system enough to shut off the heart and or brain or by hemorhage, which also shuts of the heart and brain.   

An arrow has a low kenetic energy, but a fairly large sharp broad head cuts lots of blood vessels and because of it's length it travels fairly deep into tissue.

Firearms get far more complicated because different bullets expand and penatrate differently and damage tissue in different ways.  Also their higher speeds cand create a shock wave that damage tissues and nerves they don't really touch.  But velocity can work against you also, the can expand a buttet or even destroy it before it has penatrated deep enough to make a clean quick kill.

Great points. A great analysis of the science involved.

[Delmonico]

Well don't let the whole world know there is simple science involved, to many gunwriters and gun magazine editors would be out of a job.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

  Simple science and common sense could cure many of society's ills. Plus relieve us of quite a few d.a.'s in Washington.....and no I don't mean District Attorney!

[Delmonico]

Well as a good example of why Ft/Lbs don't always mean much, my 45-70 Sharps with a 500 gr bullets and Black Powder has almost the same Ft/Lbs as my brother's 22-250 does with a 55 gr bullet.  But both are useful for different things.

Take a deer, slip that in between the ribs and right into the plumbing and it will go dow, but fast.  With the 500 gr 45-70 it will most likely run a 100-200 yards with the same exact hit.

Try a from the rear shot and things are different, the 55 gr will not reach anything that will kill it quickly and it most likely will die hours or days later.  The 500 gr will break down all the bones in the way and exit the other end.  And will most likely kill it faster than the broadside shot.

However on either broadside shot if it runs, the 500 gr will be easier to track since it will exit.  The 55 gr will most likely note.

Rule #1.  Exit holes bleed, entrance holes often don't, blood will lead you to what you are looking for.  The BS about a bullet not exiting is better, cause it expends all it's energery in side is fine if it drops dead, if it heads into the heavy brush, yer in trouble.

There are so many varibles on how a gun kills game one has to take them all into account, heck bullet construction plays a lot into it.  The soft lead bullet out of a lower velocity BPC is about as perfect as it can get.  For High Velocity as in many Nitro rounds the Barnes X Bullet is about as good as it gets for large game.  Both are 1 piece, nothing to seperate.  Nether will destroy itself, they will expand and hold almost all their weight. 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

For a thorough understanding of these principles, I recommend  wikipedia and search for  inertia, momentum and  energy. Here you will find basic explanations as well as variables that may be introduced to  their basic principles. You may learn something! Jog your memory from high school physics! Impress your old school chums at the  class reunion......"Ya'll remember back in '92 in Mr. El's class and that enthralling discussion on kinetic and potential energy?"
Seriously though, study inertia, momentum and energy and all this muzzle velocity/energy stuff will have a new meaning.