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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  SCORRS (Moderator: Bull Schmitt)  |  Topic: 1858 Armi San Paulo in .44 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Biermeister
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« on: April 09, 2006, 10:33:16 am »


Howdy,
    Saw a 1858 Remington made by Armi San Paulo yesterday in what appeared to be very good condition. It's grip frame reminded me of the Uberti 1858's. Does anyone know what this is worth? The Dealer who had it said it was made in 1972 according to it's serial number. Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 12:05:45 pm »

Howdy Beirmeister..........

 Armi San Paolo changed its name to Euroarms in 2002, and the Remington replica you saw was one of the early ones made by Armi San Paolo. They made a very good quality replica , a fairly accurate copy in frame size to the original Beals Remington with the small grip frame. It is smaller than the Uberti grip frame.  Euroarms has kept manufacturing their Remingtons with the same tooling that Armi San Paolo used.  I recently purchased their new '58 Rem NMA from S&S Firearms in NY for $190. I would guess that the vintage Armi San Paolo you were looking at should be worth at least $150......that's just my own guess. Could bring more if it's in good shape because more folks seem to be catching on to the smaller frame ASPs, and are wanting the earlier ones made in the 70s. Wink

Check the cylinder/bore alignment by looking down the muzzle with a flashlite at EACH chamber in battery and make sure there is no visible shiny crescent on either side, which is a portion of the cylinder face shining back at you. It would be on the right if the cyl. is over-rotated,....and on the left if the cyl. is under-rotated. Sometimes there's only a very slight misalignment and the shiny part just shows down in the barrel's grooves at the chamber edge, and not over the top of the lands,...that's still slightly out of alignment, but not as bad as when the a full crescent showing over the top of the lands on either side. Good luck,....and post some pics (if possible) ifin ya get her.  Cool
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2006, 05:45:38 pm »

Wish I'd found one yesterday. I didn't find anything I was looking for at all, except I was lucky enough to get some large pistol primers. Seems there is a run on pistol primers in the LA area.

What can you get the ASP for? I just bought one on GB a 1977 model.

Traded Watcher (on Voy6408 Forum) for a 1973 (XX9)  Euroarms '58, to match my XX9 and have another oner I got off GB.

Anything less than what you can buy a new one at S & S Sales for is a good deal if, like Oldelm says, it passes the alignment test.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2006, 09:55:43 pm »

Thanks Oldelm and Halfway Creek Charlie for your replies. I will try to look at it sometime this week and check out the alignment. I sure loved the feel of it and the action felt real smooth. Is Euroarms still importing them ? Thanks again.
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2006, 10:27:10 pm »

If you get it and need parts, try the folks listed in this thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,8373.0.html

They were recommended to me, and they did me right.  They list ASP as one of the manufacturers they stock parts for. 

I know after some work, if I could find another Armi san Marco for a decent price I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat.  I like it much better than my Piettas, and I have no complaints with them.

Good luck!
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 10:59:30 pm »

I fell in love with Smoking_Gun's ASP '58 NMA because of the feel in my hands, the balance and the heft. His shoots very, very good, I'm still working up a load for my ASP/Euroarms '58 NMA's both C & B and conversion to 44 Rem. CF.

Initial shots from two of my now 4, showed windage to be correct, but They were shooting my 44 Rem. CF high at 15 yds, but I was using a hot load of Trail Boss(5 Grn.) and the 248 Grn Bullet. I have backed off and will try 4.5 grn Trail Boss and 4.75 Grn trail boss for my inside shooting. I haven't tried my standard BP loard of 28 Grn BP with the 248 grn bullet. This loading shot great in my Pietta's and I hope it does the same with the ASP?euroarms '58's.

S & S Sales has ASP/Euroarms Parts also, and they are a distributor for Euroarms and carry the '58 Rem,3 models, '58 NMA, '58 NMA target sights, '58 Rem NMA engraved. plus they carry the '58 New Model Navy in 36 Cal. and I believe a 6 1/2" bbl.
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2006, 11:57:46 am »

Howdy Halfway Creek Charlie,
    Was wondering which conversion cylinder you are using in the ASP 1858 ? Does the Uberti work ? The Uberti and ASP that I saw last week looked to be approx. the same size.
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2006, 10:33:50 pm »

Funny you should ask.
Yes the Uberti Kirst works in the ASP/Euroarms. That is what I bought recently in 44 Rem. CF, gated and I had the ejector assy already. My other Kirst is a Pietta Kirst in 44 Rem CF also. Sooooo. I took .018 off the face of theKirst Pietta cylinder and it now works in my Euroarms/ASP and my Uberti '58 Carbine. Of course the Uberti works in my 3 Euroarms/ASP '58 Remmy's (the 4th one is enroute) and the Carbine as does the Cutdown Pietta Kirst.

Either R &D or the Kirst for Uberti's will work in the ASP/Euroarms '58 Remmy. The only difference in the Uberti Kirst and the Pietta Kirst is that the Pietta Model cylinder is .018 too long. Everything else works fine. The Kirst '58 Remmy Recoil shields are all the same Uberti or Pietta no matter what caliber.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2006, 10:34:39 pm »

Howdy,
     Talked to the Dealer and asked about the alignment with the chamber over the phone and He said it appeared to line up well. I looked at it and two of the chambers that are adjacent to each other, show a small crescent on the right hand side, the others appear to line up perfectly. What can be done to correct this problem ? Is it safe to shoot in this condition ? It looks to be near new condition.  All my other 1858's (Pietta's) line up perfectly. Thanks for all your'e help.
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2006, 11:15:38 pm »

Biermiester,....I think you'll probably be ok, as long as the crescent you're seeing in those two chambers isn't that wide, or should I say doesn't appear above the top of the lands that far. There's no way to correct that when it's occuring in just a few chambers. Those two chambers must have been bored slightly off alignment . If you haven't purchased it yet,...maybe the dealer will discount it because if this,....but if you have already purchased it,...see how it shoots,.....note when you're firing those chambers, and see if the results are printing on the target different than the other chambers. Know what I mean? They might not,.....and you'll be fine. But if you're gettin flyers from those chambers,...well, you could always buy an Uberti cylinder,...they'll fit and work fine in the ASP. One good thing about the ASP is that they generally have a nice tight barrel groove dia.,..my Euroarms (ASP) '58 Rem .44 has a groove dia of .449.
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2006, 09:18:13 am »

Howdy,
     I will give it a try with the existing cylinder and see if it works. I can always buy a new cylinder from VTI. Thanks again Oldelm & Halfway Creek Charlie for your'e help.
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2006, 08:28:13 pm »

Howdy,
     Took my 1972 era Armi San Paolo into the dealer today to see if the Uberti cylinder He had would work in my revolver. The cylinder fit just fine but the cylinder base pin on the Armi San Paolo would not slide completely through the Uberti cylinder. The Dealer measured the hole through the Uberti cylinder and it was smaller than the hole in the Armi San Paolo. To utilize the Uberti cylinders do you have to use the cylinder base pin for the Uberti ?
     Plan on testing the original cylinder tomorrow, maybe it will work just fine. Thanks.
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2006, 11:41:26 pm »

You could always use an adjustable reamer to make the hole larger, but then you would be committed and if it didn't work, you'd be out the price of the cylinder. Another option is to send it to Kenny Howell at R&D and have him fit one to it. When you got it back, it would surely work right.
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2006, 10:19:08 pm »

Shot my 1972 ASP 1858 today. Had some misfires when I was clearing the nipples, Was using #10 Remington caps. Had some # 11 Remington caps in my shooting gear, tried them and had no further ignition problems. Shot each hole at 25 feet and turned out I always had a flyer out of #6 hole at eight o'clock. Last cylinder for the day I left  # 6 hole empty and at 25ft. The group was 2" high and 2.5" left. I was able to cover the group with the butt of the revolver. Will drift the sight to the left and give it a try again sometime. All in all I'm very happy with the ASP, love the feel and balance of it. Thanks again to all of you for you're help.
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2006, 09:15:35 pm »

Howdy,
     Was wondering what diameter of roundball you guys use in your ASP's or Euroarms 1858 .44's ? I was using .454 the other day seemed to shoot well enough but upon seating the RB the .454  did not leave a ring of lead. Has anybody used the .457 diameter round balls in the ASP's ? The front sight appears to be  dovetailed, however I can't seem to get it to drift with a small hammer and a nylon punch that I used on my Pietta's after I had dovetailed sights added to them. The punch and hammer worked fine on my mausers too. I'll give it a try again. Thanks again.
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2006, 11:35:46 pm »

biermeister,.....44 '58 Rem ASPs generally run small on their bore dia. Mine slugged out at .449. I think the reason you're not getting a ring of lead is that perhaps your chamber mouths are chamfered slightly. Mine are on my Euroarms '58 Rem. That actually helps keep that extra bit 'o lead on the ball to be swagged up against the chamber wall, thus giving a better seal of the ball in the chamber, especially if the loading  rammer cup's leading edge hits far enough towards the outer edge of the ball,...it swages lead up against the chamber wall.  If you slug your barrel and find you have a tight bore,....449-.450,...you could probably be fine with a .452 ball.
How's that cylinder pin fitting with the Uberti cylinder, or did ya just decide to go with the original cyl.?
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2006, 07:23:08 am »

Oldelm thanks for the info. I think I will stick to the original cylinder for the time being. Later I may pickup a spare percussion cylinder and maybe even another conversion cylinder. Does your ASP have a dovetailed front sight ? Thanks again.
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2006, 09:13:41 am »

Yes, my Euroarms '58 has a dovetailed front site. I have not tried to adjust it for windage,..as it shoots pretty high, so I'm going to pick up a replacement front site for a Uberti '58, which are higher, and fit it to the Euroarms.
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 06:12:14 pm »

I tried my R&D cylinder for the Uberti in the ASP and it did not fit. My ASP is an older one in SS. I do like the lighter frame and thinner grips.

Maybe someone can describe the difference in the ASM and ASP or Uberti Remmies. I haven't handled an ASM Remmie in about 10 years.
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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2006, 07:57:28 am »

I bought a drop in conversion cylinder from Taylors for my ASM 44 i knew the Pietta cylinders were too long for it because i have many to compair with... the ASM cylinder is shorter ...but i didn`t have a Uberti here to try .. anyway Taylors sent me the cylinder for the Uberti with some instructions to make it work in the ASM all i needed to do was a small amount of fileing in the frame where the cylinder face rides ..it was a tad tight there causeing binding problems .. wasn`t any real big deal only took a little fileing and it works fine .. i guess Taylors knows most of the problems that we run into with the different makes .
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2006, 07:48:49 pm »

Kirst Uberti Cylinders fit the ASP/Euroarms '58 Rem, as does the original Uberti BP cylinders. Have only heard this account of the R&D not fitting.

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Shooting History (original), Remy NMA Conversions, 1863 New Model Pocket Model C.F. Conversion, Remy Model 1889 12Ga. Coach Gun
2nd. Gen. "C" Series Colt 1851 Navies
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1860 Civilian Henry 45LC (soon to be 44 Henry Flat C.F.(Uberti)
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2006, 07:48:27 am »

Biermiester, I have a very old ASP Rem, and the sights will move but i had to carefully tap it with a hammer and a steel punch that I rounded off the sharp edges. My ASP now shoot on the X but the site is almost about on the right edge of the octagon barrel. Long as i hit what I'mm shootin' at I don't care...LoL!
Mine will take .457 balls but got in a little harder(those were swedged@.458-.459). The Chamber mouths are beveled alot more than the Euroarm, Uberti, and Piettas. I figure if I can get more lead in the chambers all the better. Bought a 2 cav Lee mold yesturday .457" for my 1858 Uberti and Colt Signature Dragoon. May make some today my guess is they will be closer to .4565"-.457". Will let ya know.
On the Uberti cylinder, the ASP or Uberti Feel the same ... great fit. The Uberti date Stamp is a BU I think that's 2004. You could order a cyl. pin from S&S Firearms(Euroarms).
http://www.ssfirearms.com/

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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2006, 09:47:40 am »

Smokin_Gu,
       Thanks for the info. I finally used a steel punch and the sight moved just slightly. before I move it anymore I will have to take it out and shoot it. I may order the cylinder and base pin from S&S. I like how the ASP's feel, they just seem to fit me very well. I have a two cavity Lee molds in .454 and .380 dia. They sure make it easy to cast a quality round ball.
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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2006, 12:31:18 pm »

Good deal on the sight adjustment. I finally zeroed the ASP Rem at the range last time out. She was shooin' wat right, so tappin the front site way right brought impact way left to the "X". I got tired of usin' Kentucky Windage...even though I makin' tin cans dance. I do like the feel of the ASP and xlint balance, seems to make point and shoot a lil easier. As I see it the ASP/Euroarms Rems feel best tight chamber to barrel dimensions, the Uberti is next in size Well finnished/smooth action, then the Pietta is a lil bigger good chamber/barrel dimensions, after deburing the action very smooth, accurate . I like um all each offer their own best qualities.
I was shootin' .375" balls in my Pietta Paterson, but bought the Lee 2 cav .380" for my 1851 Navy Uberti...which had been sittin in the safe a spell. I had traded off my Paterson to a friend for Uberti 1858 Rem 2004. I just had to have one and couldn't twirl my Paterson. LoL!
Anyway was a good trade we both got what we wanted. Ya see I am a Remington man that has a few Colts. But like I always say you only really need one Remington...maybe one for each hand. But more is better too!
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