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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Shooter's Meeting (Moderators: Marshal Halloway, Camille Eonich, Texas Lawdog)  |  Topic: CAS Rifles 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: CAS Rifles  (Read 8387 times)
Camille Eonich
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« on: March 17, 2006, 10:56:09 am »


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It seems thet most 'cowboys 'n girls  o' taday shoot foregin guns 'stead o American, Ah'd be willin ta bet a silver dollar thet most cowboys/ girls in th west o the 1800s used American arms ta defend thar selves 'n thar property. "n Ah jest kan't see th need fer us ta be supportin foreginers 'stead o real American arms makers lik Winchester 'n Ithia 'n Savage arms ,n Remmington? As fer Colt wal they jest charge too much fer th average wageearner these days.
 O.K. Ah'm steppin off'n the soapbox now.

I think that nothing would make Cowboy Action Shooters happier than if Winchester would start reproducing the '73s and the '66s or if other American gun manufacturers would start maing cowboy guns.

 The opinion of a large number of cowboy action shooters is that the model '66 and the '73 are the best rifles to use for this game.  The action Winchester 1894 is just too clunky and causes too many problems for the majority of cowboy action shooters.



I'm not aware of guns that the other companies are making that are compatible with CAS so I'll stop here.
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2006, 12:38:59 pm »

Just as the cowboys and cowgirls in the Old West were practical, so are we.  The old boys shot what they could get and that included some English and even French imports.  Most of us shoot what works best for us. 

Many use Marlin rifles.  Back about 5 - 6 years ago, they were the King.  (They are still a great rifle, and about the best bargain around for a rifle.)

Then folks started using more 66 and 73 rifles and found them to be smoother and with a little slicking up to be about the best overall rifles.  Yup, if we could get American made for a reasonable price we would, but no one makes them in the U.S. Plus the looks of a good 66 or 73 is so cowboy!
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2006, 07:26:24 am »

 Is the 16 in . too short a barrel for cowboy action ?  Although available in yellowboy 66 and 73s I dont see too many of them .
         Thank you.
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2006, 09:34:46 am »

Of Course, I should have realized---- You see I'm retired and get a fairly decent stipend, plus my house & car are free & clear of any bank notes, Thanks to God & the lady I'm hitched up with. So I can afford to buy American arms. Cheesy  Kids are on their own, so all I got to feed is an ornery cat by the of "Gen' Sterling Price"  Now where did I hear that name before---?
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CYRILLE...  R.A.T. #242
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"A gun is  just a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool----- Think of it always in that way. A gun is as good--- and as bad--- as the man who carries it. Remember that."
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2006, 03:23:32 pm »

The capacity for the 16" rifle is 10 rounds.  If it fits you well and feels good to you then it is very practical. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2006, 04:22:35 am »

It still seems bizzare to me that Henry doesn't make a copy of the '60 and '66 Henrys. Huh Why do we have to get them from Italy?
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2006, 12:16:06 am »

Because No One wishes to Spend the Rhino to Tool-Up to make them here in the States.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2006, 01:54:52 am »

It seems all the really fast top gun types do use the 73 and the 66 too but in lesser amounts around here. Badlands Bud turned some awesome rifle times with his trusty goldenboy, but I notice he is shooting a 73 now too. Hmmmm.
Well, yes Marlins were king just a short while ago, but you know I still shoot them. I have 3 and they plug along same as me and we get the job done, although not at any breakneck speeds. I think they are simply, just like me, so I figure to keep shooting a Marlin.
But.................I have shot Doc Shapiros 73 Codymatic and I will agree that is sweet, and I mean really sweet, but you have to go with something that fits your ability and for me that would be the Marlin.
I was watching a shooter with a 9 shot Winchester have a great time with his carbine recently at a match and reloading a tenth round each stage and he was having a great time and could care less how long it took to shoot the targets. That is his game and he has fun with that.
I still do not see that many shooting Lightnings in my area yet, but I have noticed they have little or no problems with them and they are fast to shoot with in the right hands too.

Besides if I ever quit shooting Marlins, 4 Eyed Buck would have my hide  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2006, 11:36:17 am »

Yer durn tooten, Howdy....... Cool Roll Eyes Wink Grin
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2006, 11:55:40 am »

Well it's not American (unless you shell out big bucks for a Ramano) but the Spencer is now legal, and real slow.  But what style Smiley
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Driftwood Johnson
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2006, 10:08:31 am »

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It still seems bizzare to me that Henry doesn't make a copy of the '60 and '66 Henrys.  Why do we have to get them from Italy?

The 1860 Henry, as well as the 1866 and 1873 Winchesters are relatively weak designs. The Henry Repeating Arms Company has stated, on this board, under the '1860 Henry' section of the Special Interests part of this Wire, that they do not wish to manufacture a replica. Specifically, they said "While historically significant, the original Henry design does not meet our standards today for safety, reliability and smoothness of the action." They also mentioned the inavailability of 44 Rimfire ammo.

One cannot fault them for making whatever choices they wish to in deciding what they will make and what they will not make. There is no question the Big Boy is a stronger design than the old toggle link designs, although I question their statement about reliability and smoothness. Don't forget, being based here in the US, personal injury lawyers would not have as much trouble descending into Brooklyn, if a rifle should fail and personal injury should result, as they would reaching across the Atlantic to Italy.
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2006, 08:20:02 pm »

Marlins fill the bill quite well and seem to be more reliable; my observation only, your results may vary.
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2006, 08:23:09 pm »

Marlins fill the bill quite well and seem to be more reliable; my observation only, your results may vary.

More reliable than all other CAS rifles?
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2006, 08:53:23 pm »

I now shoot the Cimarron '73 Trapper with 16" bbl.  It holds 10 rounds of 38 sp. ammo with either the Snakebite Big Lube bullet or the Lyman 358665 with Holy Black.  Rifle is very quick handling.  It is my main match gun now.
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2006, 09:28:34 pm »

I attended my fust Cas shoot on the 15th o the month an shot my fust 'match' with my Henry BB Shocked hit the target every time but the truth be told I was a mite slow.
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CYRILLE...  R.A.T. #242
"Never apologize Mr.; it's a sign of weakness."
Capt. Nathan Brittles {John Wayne} in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon."

"A gun is  just a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool----- Think of it always in that way. A gun is as good--- and as bad--- as the man who carries it. Remember that."
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2006, 09:50:07 pm »

More reliable than all other CAS rifles?

Just my personal observation, yes, but keep in mind that most everyone (that I know at least) changes at least the ejector from the two piece to one at minimum.  Action jobs for the Marlin are cheaper too, and it's one you can do yourself with just a little studying.
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2006, 03:28:42 am »

what are your opinions on the henry bigboy in .45 cal as a CAS gun?  it was SASS approved not to long ago, was'nt it?  im still in the market for my CAS rifle and have been goin nuts lookin.  boy this is fun!  Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2006, 07:15:08 am »

Well--- since you're askin:
    I would have to say that, in my opinion, the Henry BB and the Winchester '94 are pretty much even as far as accuracy. I own both. The main diffrence, again, my opinion, is the weight, the Henry is the heavier rifle I forget the actual weight diffrence but I believe that the Henry is pretty close to 3lbs heavier. It is easier, though slower to load than is my Winchester. I like both equally, the Winchester because it is a Winchester and the Henry because it's so durn purty and eaiser to load. And as I said both are accurate rifles. Oh, by the bye both of mine are in .45 Colt caliber shot with my own home brew of powder and bullet(s).  Cool.
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CYRILLE...  R.A.T. #242
"Never apologize Mr.; it's a sign of weakness."
Capt. Nathan Brittles {John Wayne} in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon."

"A gun is  just a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool----- Think of it always in that way. A gun is as good--- and as bad--- as the man who carries it. Remember that."
                                                   Shane
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2006, 07:55:11 am »

Just my personal observation, yes, but keep in mind that most everyone (that I know at least) changes at least the ejector from the two piece to one at minimum.  Action jobs for the Marlin are cheaper too, and it's one you can do yourself with just a little studying.

I don't think that you can actually say that the Marlin is more reliable than a '73 and if a person is fast enough they are going to start consistently having problems with a Marlin.  In other words you can out run one.  If you do have a problem with a Marlin then chances are that you're going to have to fix it at the unloading table whereas a lot of times the problems occur with a '73 are able to be fixed in a matter of seconds and you do get to finish your rifle string.

The Marlin is definitely the least expensive of the two though and they are fine guns.  I would have no problem reccommending one to someone starting out and wanting to do so on a budget.
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2006, 03:10:32 pm »

Look, this is just my observation, that's all.  It's not blanket advice.
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2006, 03:19:21 pm »

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

My observation...
My wife shoots a Marlin and it does a very good job for her, after having a MAJOR action job.

It seems that every match I attend, I see at least one, if not more, "Marlin jambs."
MANY Marlins are also very OAL sensitive.
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2006, 04:18:43 pm »

Look, this is just my observation, that's all.  It's not blanket advice.


That's all my reply was... Huh
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2006, 04:24:01 pm »

The only Marlin I own is in 30-30 Winchestercaliber, I use it only for hunting, so it is not fired rapidly or a whole lot I know that I've never emptied the magazine while hunting, in fact I never fully load it I put only three bullets in the rifle when I hunt. The second shot is if I somehow miss or the animal moves as I squeeze the trigger, the third is to dispatch the animal if I have to. So far I haven't had to. I said that to say this I have not had a malfunction in the Marlin since I bought it in the '70's, It is cleaned when I get back to camp or home if only a weekend hunt and lightly oiled then stored in my safe until the next hunt or for not more than a month before taken out and a patch run through it and it is wiped down. I believe in the addage "Take care of your guns and they'll take care of you." Same goes for any "tool."
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CYRILLE...  R.A.T. #242
"Never apologize Mr.; it's a sign of weakness."
Capt. Nathan Brittles {John Wayne} in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon."

"A gun is  just a tool. No better and no worse than any other tool----- Think of it always in that way. A gun is as good--- and as bad--- as the man who carries it. Remember that."
                                                   Shane
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2006, 05:01:35 pm »

I know that to be the case sometimes with either the .44 and .357 calibers, but I've never observed that with the .45's.  What I have seen and experienced is using .44 specials or .38's, a "crud" ring builds up in the chamber, causing difficult feeding if switching to magnum length cases or specials with a slightly longer OAL.  A quick fix, which is a good cleaning, but I'm guilty of neglecting to do this often enough only to have a problem.  The "Marlin" jam is also a quick fix, although not for at the range, if you do just a little polishing of the snail shaped cam on the lever.  This is also a case for ounce of prevention, better than pound of a cure, as if you don't do this before the carrier has a line etched in it you will need extensive gunsmithing later on, probably to included replacing the carrier completely.

Marlins also need to have the screws tightened occaisionally, some more than others, and loose screws are also a source of feeding problems which go away immediately after tightening.

I think every rifle that's going to be subjected to the number of rounds fired through it for CAS is going to need some work on it right out of the box, some models more or less than others.  The Marlin needs to have the lever cam that leaves the factory with a sharp edge polished slightly to a more rounded profile; too much and you've done more harm than good.  If you've already got a visible line (notch) on the carrier then it will need to be replaced eventually.  That's a fact and it just a flaw in the design, but an easy and cheap fix if done when the rifle is new.  I'm not saying the "Marlin jam" occurs within a certain amount of time, 6, 10 or even 50 matches down the road, and some never see it until 10 years or more, but it happens, and it can be prevented without having a full blown action job.

The one thing I'd recommend to all Marlin shooters is to replace the ejector with a one piece unit.  I've never seen the factory two piece break, but I'm told it will and to not take a chance.  I've got a pre-cross bolt safety .44 mag that I picked up at a pawn shop cheap knowing it had the Marlin jam and would need major work.  It now has one piece firing pin and "Bear-proof" 1 piece ejector, metal magazine plug, Marlin "Magic Spring", plus most of the internals including the lever had to be replaced, not a project I'd recommend for a newbie or anyone else with a bit a sanity left, but more to the point, it's as slick and reliable as my 3 year old 1894 CBC .45.  Both my 1894's see double duty on the range as well as in the field.  Both digest full power hunting loads without problems and go right back to a CAS match the next weekend.  I can't see that happening with any other SASS legal levergun with the exception of a '92 clone which need extensive smithing out of the box.
Here's a good link for the Marlin: http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Marlin94Fix.html
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SASS# 35973, BOLD #557, Tejas Caballeros, Texican Rangers and TSRA
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2006, 05:19:56 pm »

Your 30-30 is probably the 336 model with the round bolt?  The 1894's square bolt functions a little different, as the 336 models don't experience this problem.  Good advice for taking care of your tools, much the same as my late grandfather's advice, whose woodworking tools are still in good condition even after last using them 21 years ago, and many of them were given to him already used, some are 90 years old.
One thing I don't care for is Marlin's "Mar-shield" finish, which just doesn't do any justice to the wood stocks.  The walnut on the yellowboys and '73's are just so much nicer.  My .44 pawn shop project gun had yellowing varnish over the factory finish and looked awful, but stripping and refinishing revealed some fairly nice walnut underneath.  Even the birch stocked 336 models benefit from refinishing in my opinion.
The only Marlin I own is in 30-30 Winchestercaliber, I use it only for hunting, so it is not fired rapidly or a whole lot I know that I've never emptied the magazine while hunting, in fact I never fully load it I put only three bullets in the rifle when I hunt. The second shot is if I somehow miss or the animal moves as I squeeze the trigger, the third is to dispatch the animal if I have to. So far I haven't had to. I said that to say this I have not had a malfunction in the Marlin since I bought it in the '70's, It is cleaned when I get back to camp or home if only a weekend hunt and lightly oiled then stored in my safe until the next hunt or for not more than a month before taken out and a patch run through it and it is wiped down. I believe in the addage "Take care of your guns and they'll take care of you." Same goes for any "tool."
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Of all the things I've lost over the years, it's my mind that I miss the most!
SASS# 35973, BOLD #557, Tejas Caballeros, Texican Rangers and TSRA
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