Mimimum Velocity Limit

[Books OToole]

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Since Onery Orr brought this subject up on the Dead Equine thread, I thought I'd take a kick at a new can of worms. 

With a protractor &/or a Mark One Eyeball someone should be able to identify an obviously  short stroked rifle.  But my Mark One Eyeball can't begin to tell how fast a bullet is going.

How would a minimum velocity be enforced? 

Please do not read any sarcasim or anything else into this comment/question;  I'm just curious. 

Books

[gw]

Books--Did you just plan to kick this can, or do you need an opener???


                                                                                    GW

[Arcey]

Mornin', Books.  Boys.

The velocity thing.  Our club kept the max/min thing.  Didn't want the targets beat up 'n we didn't want stuff bouncin' back 'n hurtin' nobody.  MD, I think, kept a cheap graph case it was needed.

After while, ya get used to the sounds.  Ya had one goin', pssst..........................................tink...  Pull 'im aside 'n have a discussion.  Push come to shove, clock 'em.

On the other end, if somebody was droppin' the hammer on a rifle 'n there was one loud 'BLANG' 'n the targets damned near got knocked o'er, or did get knocked o'er, we'd talk again.

N'er had to pull the graph out that I know of.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Books,
The only way I can see that it would be enforced is to chrony everyone's loads before every match. But, someone could give a faster load to be chronied than what they will shoot in the match. In other words, it is unenforeable, IMHO.

Slim

[gw]

Seriously, it would be enforceable with a chronograph and randomly selected cartridges, but to me, the bigger question is, would we want to enforce it? I, for one, would most definitely not! Again, the NCOWS member is responsible for the authenticity of his equipment and gear, ammo included. Nuf' said.

                                                                         GW

[Grizzle Bear]

Not a problem at all.

If you have established a minimum velocity for various rounds, you make a chronograph available for everyone to fire their ammo over, to test it and be sure they are in compliance.  Most folks will want to be.

If somebody is shooting "mouse fart" loads, the judge just asks them to load the offending firearm from the belt the shooter has on, and the judge shoots it over the chronograph.  Don't give them a chance to dig around in their gun cart for some full power loads.

The only problem I see is where to draw the line.  I would say establish the velocity of a case full of black powder, as a nominal velocity.  And then make your floor a percentage of that.  I would start the bidding at 75%.  Others may want to change that number up or down.  There are variations in different reloading manuals, variations in loading procedures, etc., that can change the actual velocity attained.

Now, of course, my favorite solution to the problem of excessively light loads is even simpler.

Just have everybody shoot Black Powder, just like God intended cowboys should!

But I see where SASS is having problems with people in the Black Powder categories shooting loads that are more grits than powder, and they are argueing that these people don't generate enough smoke!

Maybe we should just stop keeping score altogether?  Then the gamers wouldn't be attracted to this at all!

Grizzle Bear

[Lars]

I am somewhere in between Arcey and Slim on this one. Some loads are so light that it is obvious, especially when there is the little "bang", a bullet is seen arching gracefully toward the target, and a "tink" is heard if the bullet hits target, sometimes to bounce back into the posse. At one recent match I even saw one shooter adjusting his rifle sights for the range to target and wind -- yes, he needed to -- we could watch his bullets, even those of us with bad eyes, as they arched toward the target and were blowen to the side by the wind (NO, this was NOT a long range match). I suspect that arrows fly faster than his bullets.

The higher end can be "funny". I used to get flack for my "overly powerful" loads, which were never at more than SAAMI spec loads for that cartridge (generally 44-40), most were actually BP loads. I even got "chewed on" for damaging targets, especially shotgun targets. Basically, in a world of severly downloaded nitro loads, ANY standard SAAMI load, ANY old standard BP load, even some reasonable loads with "loud" powder (any BP, Titegroup, etc.) may be called "hot" by the uninformed, unexperienced.

I have even carried some old standard (meaning NOT the SASS half-case loads so common today) BP loads to shoot after someone accused me of shooting "hot" nitro loads. That usually stopped the fuss. It also kept me from being DQed once at EoT for using "illegal" loads.

Another problem at some clubs is that the targets are so close that target damage is invited from anyone shooting anything like a standard SAAMI load in 44-40, etc. or shooting a choked shotgun. I have even had complaints about 2,5 dram 1,0 oz BP loads damaging targets -- folks have even commented this year about how "hard" we hit the shotgun targets -- with 3/4 oz loads from tight choked, long barreled doubles!!!

I think part of the abhorrance of a minimum velocity limit is the expectation/requirement for overt, checked compliance, as Slim indicates. I never saw that. I did see some clubs that selectively chronoed ammo that was producing bounce-backs a lot. It was announced at each and every shooter's meeting that this would be done.

Lars

[Silver Creek Slim]

...

Maybe we should just stop keeping score altogether?  Then the gamers wouldn't be attracted to this at all!

Grizzle Bear

Sounds good ta me. 

Slim

[Hemlock Mike]

Another possibility is a knock down type target positioned here and there. 
Calibrate with an "acceptable" load and the Mouse pharts won't score.
I've watched CAS on TV and hate the pop-ting-pop-ting-pop-ting sounds.

Mike

[gw]

Looks like just another by-law that while it could be enforced, we just don't want to. So, by some reasoning, we just ought to get rid of it? Maybe Grizzle Bear's timer idea is the way to go?!

                                                                                    GW

[Lars]

There is another way to do this. That is, put a time limit on the stage, say, 30 - or 40 - or 60 seconds. Any shots after the end buzzer don't count, only the hits and misses withing the time limit. Of course, unfired rounds are counted as misses.

While I have seen stages like this now and then, I have no idea how they might be received if there were lots (all?) of such stages.

Hemlock Mike,

That has been tried repeatedly. It is easy to defeat. Just make sure the load used on that target is heavy enough. All the others can be wimpies. A no-brainer for the serious shooter, given the dictated or planed course of fire.

Lars

[Cuts Crooked]

It is easy to defeat. Just make sure the load used on that target is heavy enough. All the others can be wimpies. A no-brainer for the serious shooter, given the dictated or planed course of fire.

Actually that's pretty easy to deal with too. I've seen this done at a couple of clubs: Shooter draws a card at the starting point to determine his shooting sequence. Have two or three shooting sequences for a given stage and "luck of the draw" decides how every shooter engages them. And before someone yells, "that ain't fair cause everyone ain't shootin the same sequence", I say yes it is because everyone has the same chance at the cards as everyone else. Insert this sort of thing into a couple or three stages and the chances even up even more...except fer the feller tryin ta "load for the knockdowns"

[Lars]

Yep that would work Cuts. It would also play havoc with a lot of folks ability to remember shooting sequences -- would be a great P-trap and likely a PIA for spotters. One of the real down sides to normal CAS shooting is the fixed sequences that have to be remembered.

Lars

[Cuts Crooked]

Hasn't seemed to be a problem at the clubs I've shot at that do this sort of thing. Sweep 5 from the left...or sweep 5 from the right...as long as the knock down isn't the middle target!

[Lars]

Well, OK, with simple sweeps, just starting from one side or other. Suppose one could invent other simple paired A or B sequences for this same porpose.

What I actually see at my favorite club is knockdown rifle and revolver targets that don't go down easily with really wimpy loads, as well as some rifle targets at decently long ranges, like a whopping 50 yards, even 75 now and then.

Lars

[Chantilly]

I'll keep my hat on regarding the min/max velocity discussion but would like to throw an old, ugly hat in to the fire -

With all the reloading done in CAS - just makes sense to keep the cost reasonable - there are some that could maybe pay a little more attention to detail.....squibs.  Our local club has a rule - one squib is a warning, the second squib you are done for the day.  There is some grumbling that the number should be three squibs not two.  My opinion....one squib...ok, something wasn't right on a load but two generally does indicate there is a problem.  I've been at shoots where there is no squib rule, and generally, if someone has two, they have more.  The thought of backing up bullets in the barrel if the posse/timer isn't paying very careful attention is very real and can be very dangerous.  Also appears that the same people have the same problem indicating not enough attention when reloading.  So...then what do you do?  Most of the time, a friendly conversataion with the individual about their reloading does the trick but not always.  Thoughts, anyone?

[US Scout]

Chantilly,

From a safety standpoint, I would say the two squibs and you're out is a good rule. 

We had one shooter with multiple squibs - about six or so in two stages.  He was allowed to continue shooting but only on the condition that he used someone else's loads or commercial loads.  He was an accident waiting to happen.
 

[Ornery Orr]

Personally, I would like to see all targets be knockdowns. This would eliminate the wimpy load shooters from keeping some hotter stuff in their cart for the occasional knockdown.

[Grizzle Bear]

Ornery, I would also like to have all targets be knock-downs.  There are two reasons this isn't done:

1. Expense.  Makes no difference if you buy commercial or make your own, you're talking over $100 per target. Generally way over!  Multiply that by 10 or 15 targets per stage, and then by 8 or so stages.

2. Time. You can pull on a rope or shut down the range and go pick them up by hand,but either way it takes a long time to reset all the targets for the next shooter.  Takes a real long time to cycle a dozen shooters through such a stage.

Saw on TV a company makes Pepper Popper targets with a battery powered automatic reset feature.  I'd love to have a bunch of those!  They're only $1200 each! 

All that said, I really do like to shoot at things and then have them fall down!  (Assuming I hit it, anyway!)

Grizzle Bear

 

[Frog69]

What would you use as a standard for a knock down ?? NCOWS has been great with diversity in caliber, i from time to time shoot for my main guns a rifle in 32 Long Colt (about the same as 32 S&W) and a pistol of the same caliber both originals guns from the 1890s. i would hate to see the playing of the game interfere with what we are trying to do which is reliving history.... just a thought

[Ornery Orr]

In response to Frog69's post, I'm going to give a scenario for my wanting knockdown targets in NCOWS.  You're on the streets of Dodge City, 5 hombres come out of the bank with a load of money.  They see you with your shiny S.A.S.S. or N.C.O.W.S. badge boldly pinned to your suspenders for all the world to see.  They perceive you as a threat.  You know you can't afford to do a double tap starting from the left, cause the dude on the right is drawing a bead on you at this moment.  You opt for a sweep from Right to Left.  You start in on 'em.  Blam!, Blam!, Blam!, Blam!, Blam!  All targets are DOWN!  No one to put a slug in you since you fired your 5 shots. 
  I'm all for historically honoring the times gone by, but lets have the mindset that back in the day, given the scenarios that we're given, these "fun little shoots" that we do would have been a matter of life and death. 
 I still believe that if you make the targets knockdowns, the "gamers" will have no choice but to shoot heavier loads.
There are guns and calibers made for plinking and then there are guns and calibers for getting the work done.  Let's get to work!!

[Frog69]

Keeping with the more common occurrences for the 1800s You could also say....... Its cold things are bleak, you haven't eaten for days its middle of winter you feel as if your being watched suddenly there is a twig snap a vicious badger comes full bore at you .... you pull up your trusty 1892 marlin in 32 long colt and (balm blam)its no longer a threat and at the same time a rabbit darts out giving a chance to do what you are there for (blam blam)you have food to help stay alive one more day in the harsh winter
Now that's Real life or death..... As For velocity  Question, This like many other things NCOWS opens up we have to realize that to make NCOWS reflect real life and or history has way to many variables to have to deal with. 1st NCOWS needs to redefine its self and then
Make the rules very specific to eliminate the gray areas, that's if you want it a sport. If you want it to be history then be prepared to leave the door open and let it strictly be for the fun and let its members learn from one an other forget about it being competitive ..... just some more thoughts

[Wymore Wrangler]

Joss, most posses around here have their own unique badges....

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Double O"
You got my vote, I think it's a damn good idea!!....., While we're at it lets have a minimum distance for the target set-ups too, say a minimum of 15 yds. for revolver and 30 for rifle, with varying degrees of height and spaces between them......

OCB

[Ornery Orr]

I'm all for it OCB.  This past year, I shot with the S.A.S.S. group here in Glenwood, IA. It's a lot like shooting an NCOWS match because almost everybody that shoots there also shoots at NTR with us and do a good job of being period in their clothing and accoutrements.  Anyway, they had some bonus rifle targets that were set up out there quite a ways.  I'm fairly fast with the rifle and it definitely made me slow down and take careful aim.  You could tell who was shooting light loads also since the bullets were dropping too much and they couldn't reach the targets hardly.