US FA Case Colors-Period Correct to the Colt?

[Virginia Gentleman]

One of the whines that I always hear from the Coltaholics is that the case hardening that Turnbull does "just doesn't look right" on the USFA guns.  I think this is bullfeathers as it looks awesome and better than anything coming out of the Colt shop, unless it too was sent to Turnbull.  What do you all think?

[Forty Rod]

The Colt's I've owned were slightly lighter than Turnbull's, but the colors and patterns were mighty close.  I had one that had an almost silver-coloered base with the other colors running all over.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I think that the Colt case colors are not much better than EMF's standard case color and I too noticed the 3rd gen guns have lighter silvery frames more so than really old 1 st gen guns that are mint for comparison.

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[St. George]

Given the fact that case-colors fade with time - a 'silvery' effect is what you'll see on an First Generation that's been used.

I have an acquaintance who's been buying Colts for probably 60 years or so - and 'many' are still in their boxes - untouched - and you really don't get much more 'mint' than that.

He bought from 'old' gunshops when you couldn't give away an old-time gun - from widows who found the evil thing in the old man's dresser drawer and wanted it 'out', and just about everybody in between.
Even bought in Old Mexico - long before Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan wrote about their adventures in buying guns from over the border.

'Their' case colors look look my own Third Generation guns and his older, used-but-not-abused stuff looks like my First Generation SAA's.

Turnbull's product looks good - Colt's looks 'better' - but I'm pretty certain that you don't like to hear that, so...

The thing is - it's hard to replicate case colors - even though you're doing everything needed to do so.

Turnbull has success more often than others - and because he does - he can charge for it with no qualms.

Were I needing a 'restoration' - he'd be my first choice.

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

PS - I talked to my guy about USFA.
His take was that they're good for 'use' - but a Colt is better for 'collecting'.
Not that he's a 'Coltaholic (your unwarranted pejorative term) - but he's an investor.
USFA simply doesn't have an established track record as yet.
If the company lasts - and if C&WAS continues to grow - that aspect can change (like the Great Westerns of the '60's) - so if you're going to shoot 'anything' - maintain it carefully and be sure to keep the boxes and papers...

[Virginia Gentleman]

St. George:

I spoke with an ex-Colt employee who indicated that the current case colors done in house are not as nice as they were even 30 years ago because of the "Union Wage Earner"and cost cutting mentality at Colt now.  Proper polishing and metal preparation in his opinion went out the window. He thought the reason Colt went to Turnbull for it's presentation grade guns was that the older work force is gone and a lot of the knowledge with them on how to make a SAA look right to a high grade collector.   Colt's always seem to look better because they are looked at by a Colt collector or as I like to call them a "Coltaholics".  No matter if the metal is over buffed/scratched/tool marks, screw holes dished out and the cost saving 3rd generation modifications to the SAA, well it is still better and looks better...because it is a Colt.  I don't buy it and most people won't either especially for the quality that you pay for in a Colt.  I guess I don't understand why this is the way it is when it is pretty obvious it isn't. 3rd gen Colts from a very bias collector view point is better for just that, collecting.  I won't argue that, but as you pointed out the so called worthless, when they came out, the Great Westerns have now skyrocketed in value.  US FA may be young, but it is obvious to anyone who is unbias, that they make a much better product that sans the llittle pony is going to increase in value if as you said, they stay in business.  I think that is a foregone conclusion IF they don't get greedy and raise their prices. I was a bit alarmed when they had their first increase and hope that they will hold the price down to where it is now.  It is akin to make the comparison with the luxury German and new comer, Japanese luxury cars, Lexus outsells BMW and Mercedes, charges a bit less and builds a more reliable car that holds its value almost as much.  Most buyers don't see them as collectible for the future, but the Lexus will have fewer problems than a Mercedes, has much better customer service.  I own 3 Mercedes and now have to admit I might have been better off with a Lexus.  Anyway, good discussion and I guess we will have to agree to disagree like gentleman.  Best regards.

[St. George]

Sadly - in its attempt to stay afloat - Colt was bought by the United Auto Workers at just about the same time as they were re-tooling for new SAA production.

As you know - the old, pre-war tooling was getting to be in poor shape - hence the new tooling and the couple of designs to hasten production - the cylinder bushing  and the hand being but two.

Right at that time - the Colt product began to fall in quality - until they say profits fall as well and they decided that a 'real' Quality-Assurance Program was needed and not just a 'nice thing to have'...

Unfortunately - 'those' Colts are what a lot of folks saw...

And it wasn't just the Model Ps, either - you should've seen the Gold Cup I had at the time...

They were making money with their 'Commemoratives' and one hell of a lot of 'those' were plated - and plating covers a multitude of sins.

But - Colt 'made it right' - if it was brought to their attention - and over time - the 'standard' product got far better.

'That' product is the 'new' Third Generation - the current one with the replaceable bushing.

Colt's building those with an eye for the man who wants a quality revolver with serious history and they listened when they were told 'what' was going to have to be produced in order for those wallets to open up.

Smart move - albeit a bit late.

Your guy's right about that dwindling work force of men who 'knew' how to build guns.
Most of them are long-since gone and the wages paid aren't attracting young guys to the factory when those same guys can 'restore' for far more money.
I'd venture to say that the current crop of young 'smiths is by far more 'talented' individually - than their predecessors - knowing engraving, finishes, hand-assembly, and the like.

My acquaintance is less of a 'Colt' collector than an investor - so no 'bias' (as you allege) exists.
He likes making large profits and over time - has done quite well and has done so by diversifying.

Hell - 'way back when' - when something like a Merwin,Hulbert Pocket Army - or a Great Western didn't even draw a glance at a decent show - he'd buy and wait...
Sometimes 30 years (but hey - they don't eat anything) would pass before it'd see the light of day, and now - for some stuff - he's one of the only games in town.

He has an eye for main chance, I guess...

So should we all - but, damn...

Good Luck.

Scouts Out!

 









 

[Virginia Gentleman]

St George:

The best "fantasy" situation would be US FA getting the capital together to buy Colt.   To be fair, I did buy a Colt 1911 A1 that was pretty well built, has given me zero problems and has marginally gone up in value. Like you, others have not been so lucky with comparitively expensive 1911s that Colt has made with horror stories about customer service.   No doubt, 1st and 2nd perhaps special 3rd generation guns will go up in value.  Investing is a whole 'nuther matter.  I now a Sheriff in Texas that is given a 3rd gen SAA to carry around give it back to the guy who loaned it to him with a letter stating he carried it.  The letter and the gun effectively double the price of the gun and he "gets credit" toward the purchase of a 2nd gen gun he wants from this guy.  Talk about a scam geared towards collectors or rather for the seller, what an investment!  True Colt has gotten better, but a bit too little to late.   I hope they change hands and build Colts' like the older ones in my collection.  The 1911 Re-make was correct even down to the Carbonia finish.  US FA may even build these too! 

[St. George]

Oh, Hell - if you want to hear a 'real' scam...

I collect American Militaria and you see some truly amazing balls on some dealers...

I can't name names - and you understand - but here's the deal and it's true as the day is long.

The recipient of the Medal of Honor - upon stating that he's either 'lost' his - or 'donated' it to a display somewhere can have it replaced with all appropriate paperwork...

For several years - there was a Korean War guy - a legitimate recipient - who would 'supplement' his income a bit by selling the Medal and paperwork.

This went on awhile - over five or six transactions - until a couple of collectors compared notes on who made any 'finds' lately.

The name came up...

He was quietly told to 'never' do that again and any further 'assistance' in replacing said decoration would be most carefully scrutinized...

Not long after - a lot of changes happened in the Awards and Decorations field - but for awhile - the guy was on to something...

My own commercial Colt Government Model I bought before my first tour.
It's a pre Series '70 - and one of the last old ones produced by Colt.
Been everywhere - did what it was supposed to.

A 'true' 'Carbona' finish is nice - but 'real' ones would flake.

Damned hard to duplicate using the chemicals of today.

The worst offenders were those guns that went to Uncle Sam with pre-war finishes.

Still and all - nice examples for just about anyone to marvel at.

Scouts Out!

PS - remember - I 'did' offer to add to any information on your M1911's and M1911A1's that I could - so when you're in your safe, write down the serial numbers and send a PM.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I remember reading that the Army Black finish was Carbonia blue that was not done properly at the factory and hence would flake.  Something about how the metal wasn't preped with boiling gasoline long enough?  Boy, the EPA and OSEHA would have a field day with that process in the factory if they used it today on a wide scale.  I only know of 2 places that do real carbonia bluing and it is expensive.