Author Topic: Shooting BP in Original Cases  (Read 2442 times)

Offline Bryan Austin

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Shooting BP in Original Cases
« on: December 22, 2018, 01:29:23 PM »
Use some caution even with full BP loads?

A very interesting thing happened today. I was finishing up my pressure testing today and shot a lot of groups. I decided to shoot some more black powder loads as well. This time, however, I used some original BP brass cases. A variation of Western, REM-UMC and WRA cases. four of the WRA cases used small pistol primers.


First, I shot 15 modern RP cases and 5 Winchester cases. I used 39gr of Swiss FFG in the Winchester cases and 40gr in everything else. 39gr of Swiss FFG gave me an average of 1,221fps from my 20" test barrel producing 8,843 PSI. The 40gr in the RP cases resulted in 1,257fps and 8,648 psi. Here is the kicker.....


I used 40gr of Swiss FFG in 16 original semi-balloon head cases of which four were small pistol primers. Same powder, same bullets, except for the four pistol primer cases...basically the same primers.


1,373fps @ 14,100psi!!!!!! HMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!!




On another note, to include the BP tests, I shot 42 pressure testing groups of at least 10 shots per group over the past few months.
Included are all of Lyman's 49th, page 299 and 300, MAX loads for both Group I and Group II rifles using Unique, IMR4227 and 2400 with the published bullets, primers, case lengths and AOL's.


All of my Group I loads ranged between 6,594psi to 9,389psi
My "Control", Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" was set to 11,300psi.
All of my Group II loads came in between 11,363psi to 17,837 psi


What I failed to do was shoot all loads at the same out side air temps. The "Control" was shot in about 55 deg, some loads shot around 35 deg and the rest also around 55deg. This does change things a little but not too awful much. Some could increase as much as 1,500psi and those shot in 55deg could increase in 90deg weather.


However, out of all of the loads I have ever come up with on my own, only TWO were higher than the Lyman's MAX pressure results of 17,830psi. Those two were 19,500psi and 19,628psi.


Only one Reloder 7 load came in over 13,500psi and it was a 240gr LRNFL bullet and it achieved 1,446fps.
Other 240gr LRNFP bullets with a lighter load stayed below 11,000psi


Most case capacity Reloder 7 loads stayed between 10,000psi and 13,000psi. Even a caseload of Trailboss surpassed SAAMI max out to 15,182psi


The Pressuretrace II system was well worth the $$$ for a little piece of mind as well as closing the mouths of a few Mr, been handloading for 55 years, Know-It-Alls.
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Chasing The 44-40 Forum: https://44-40.forumotion.com

Offline pony express

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Re: Shooting BP in Original Cases
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2018, 08:22:12 AM »
Interesting. Have you tried any of the BP subs, or compared brands and granulations of BP?


Also your data shows again that Trailboss can be a pretty high pressure powder, but still not a lot of velocity.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: Shooting BP in Original Cases
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2018, 09:17:07 AM »
Interesting. Have you tried any of the BP subs, or compared brands and granulations of BP?


Also your data shows again that Trailboss can be a pretty high pressure powder, but still not a lot of velocity.

So far I have tried Kik FFF, Skirmish FFF and Swiss FF, gonna try some Goex FFF in the morning.

Trailboss was developed not to exceed cowboy action shooting regulated velocities in bulk charges. It was developed for those bulk loads to prevent catastrophic double charges in long black powder cartridge cases designed for black powder.


Here is a better account of my adventure. https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2018/11/06/PressureTrace-II

I know this can be a controversial topic but I wanted to share what I have experienced so far.The following information could be completely inaccurate so use at own risk, it is intended for discussion purposes only.

For quite some time now I have wanted to get to the bottom of all my questions, all those things that didn't seem to make sense. I have learned that many of my questions meet resistance on the forums but a person will never know if they don't ask.

First and foremost, Lyman's 49th handloading manual lists 44-40 high pressure loads and lists rifles that are safe and unsafe for such loads. I urge you to go get one, or if you already have one, go take a look at page 299 and page 300.

Second, Winchester and Remington manufactured high pressure loads.

Winchester from 1903 to 1938. Pressures change during these years but high nonetheless. They were designed specifically for the Winchester 92 but of course later could be used in any strong action rifle, never to be used in pistols or the 73'.

To step back for just a second, when Winchester started using Smokeless loads back 1895, the cartridge box label was RED and specifically noted for use in the Winchester 73'....BUT NOT FOR PISTOLS. Meaning early Winchester smokeless loads were not to be used in those early black powder frame revolvers. However, the High Velocity loads were NOT FOR USE in the 73' or Pistols. Just wanted to make that clear.

To continue...the strain gauge. Really not much to say here because I am still learning. Since there is not much published out there. I decided after many years of pondering and reading to purchase the Pressuretrace II basic program. My doubts were that the user had to enter a known pressure for a given cartridge...and they use PSI rather than the typically published CUP. This created a problem for me but I finally over came the doubt. SAAMI lists the max pressures for both methods...PSI and CUP. We all should already now that those are 11,000psi and 13,000cup.

One of the reasons I started this whole mess is because of Winchester's modern neutered hunting loads that have only given me 1,055fps...even slower than advertised 1,190fps. This boiled my blood so for years I played with Lyman's data.

Parallel, I also played with black powder loads. Although messy and demanding they produced more powerful and even accurate results, which John Kort proved so many times, than published and factory max smokeless loads.

Finally Buffalo Bore manufactured a powerful, to original ballistic, cartridge that they claim remains under SAAMI max pressures. Now I had my missing link. Even though I don't know what the actual pressures are that they tested, I used their loads for my "Control". (Testing OAT was 55deg F)

When I loaded up the Pressuretrace data, entered all of the barrel dimensions, measurements, etc I still had my doubts. When I made the first few shots, my doubts dwindled down to a slight encouragement. The results were an average group of 12,900psi. But that is 1,600psi above MAX. Well, it could be and that is not really the problem since the results were based on data I entered. Since the factory load is loaded to below or at SAAMI max, I corrected the data by entering a minus correction of 1,600psi bringing the Control down to 11,300psi. No matter if this is correct or not, all other shots tested will fall into a greater or less pressure that Buffalo Bore's factory loads. This is the information I needed.

I soon discovered that all those Cowboy factory loads will not even register with my 1 1/4" thick barrel all would be less than 6,000psi. Winchester factory hunting loads came in as expected, well under SAAMI max pressures but higher than the weak cowboy loads. Two separate tests of 10 shots each resulted in both averages at 1,055fps. One pressure result avg was 6,594psi and the other was 6,762. Consistent...even if consistently incorrect!

Thus my next step was to try Lyman's both starting loads and max loads with what powders I had...IMR4227, Unique and 2400,...primers and the bullets listed in the manual as well as the case and AOL lengths. I performed ten tests using those published loads.

All but one Group I rifle loads were between 8,130psi and 9,389psi. One came in at 11,363psiAll Group II rifle loads came in between 12,604psi and 17,837psi. All of those Group II loads Lyman published as 19,000+ CUP....and those were not the highest. The highest is a Red Dot (427098) load of 21,900cup. One Lyman Group II load gave me 1,672fps/15,618psi avg putting it well inside the 1903-1938 High Velocity (22,000cup) category.

Including Black Powder Loads, I'll get to those shortly, I documented 43 tests @ 10 shots per group for 430 shots. Using Trailboss, Unique, Reloder 7, H4198, 2400, KiK FFFG, Skirmish FFFG and Swiss FFG.

All but one black powder loads were between 6,043 and 8,843psi. One group using Original balloon semi-head cases produced a surprised 14,100 avg psi
 
Several smokeless powder 1,284fps and 1,348fps loads produced less than 10,000psi while most, up to 1,586fps loads came in below 13,700psi.

My favorite and most accurate Reloder 7 load @ 100 yards that grouped 4", clocked 1,400fps...came in below 12,000psi...well below most Lyman's published Group II loads.

I had absolutely not the first case malfunction or case damage. During all of my some 3,000 high pressure shots over the past 10 years, I only found one case with a horizontal crack close to the mouth. Not even sure it was from the HV shots, not to mention the weird non traditional crack...but found nonetheless.
Chasing The 44-40 Website: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester

Chasing The 44-40 Forum: https://44-40.forumotion.com

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Re: Shooting BP in Original Cases
« Reply #3 on: Today at 04:08:36 AM »

Offline Coal Creek Griff

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Re: Shooting BP in Original Cases
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2018, 12:03:46 PM »
Thank you, Bryan, for your extensive testing and for giving us your results.

CC Griff
Manager, WT Ranch--Coal Creek Division

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Offline Dave T

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Re: Shooting BP in Original Cases
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2018, 12:18:47 PM »
Interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing your results.

Dave

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: Shooting BP in Original Cases
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2018, 06:56:50 PM »
Interesting indeed
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