Are you kidding me?!

[greyhawk]

If I may play devil's advocate....Where do you draw the line??? I mean if you're going to use coil springs, why not put a transfer bar in it? And the feature that allows the cylinder spins when the loading gate is opened? And the cylinder should spin in either direction, as well.

CHT.
I think the devil got his tail in the fire an lost his focus -- we talkin about fix somethin thats broken not break somethin thats fixed already

I been tryin to get a decent trigger on my ruger single six (22), took the trigger block / transfer bar out for a test - yup that was heaps better -- little touch dangerus though . Now if that shooter had a decent halfcock safety notch the transfer bar would be down the toilet in an instant - but it has to go back in cuz I shoot it in company. Put up with the creepy trigger - maybe improves my shootin if I can beat it. 





 

[Coffinmaker]

RRio-n-Greyhawk-n-others .......

Converting some guns to Coil Spring and Plunger is fairly simple.  A new hole is drilled in the frame above and just to the right of the Back Strap Screw.  I use Stainless Ruger parts for the spring and plunger.  Care must for the angle of the bore.  I DO NOT suggest trying to use the Grip Frame screw hole re-bored, or even a special drilled out Grip Frame Screw with spring.  Using the grip frame screw/hole runs the chance of the spring and plunger putting asymmetrical pressure on the hand, causing binding.  I center the bore on the hand so the plunger runs in the middle of the hand.

I have never questioned the reliability of flat "Main Springs."  Unless one does something stupid with them, they simply don't break.  The actually belong under a 3/4 Ton Dodge, but they don't break.  Hand springs break.  Those whom own a few, or several may never experience a broken hand spring.  Those of us whom see and work on several hundred on the other hand, see quite a few broken hand springs.

There are always those whom suffer from severe "hardening of the attitude."  If it's worked for a hundred years, it works for me attitude.  Or in some cases, I got stupid and it's your fault.  If you know small parts are present you simply deal with them.  Some are well opposed to progress and improvement.  One of the benefits of coil springs is the lack of "stacking."  Oh, and while were at it, THE safest single action handguns on the PLANET have Transfer Bars.

There are choices available.  We can all choose our particular features.  We have the option of selection.  Being critical of improvement and progress is rather short sighted.  Some time back, there were those who found serious flaw with the wheel. 

[greyhawk]

RRio-n-Greyhawk-n-others .......

Converting some guns to Coil Spring and Plunger is fairly simple.  A new hole is drilled in the frame above and just to the right of the Back Strap Screw.  I use Stainless Ruger parts for the spring and plunger.  Care must for the angle of the bore.  I DO NOT suggest trying to use the Grip Frame screw hole re-bored, or even a special drilled out Grip Frame Screw with spring.  Using the grip frame screw/hole runs the chance of the spring and plunger putting asymmetrical pressure on the hand, causing binding.  I center the bore on the hand so the plunger runs in the middle of the hand.
I must be a good copycat this is how I did mine

I have never questioned the reliability of flat "Main Springs."  Unless one does something stupid with them, they simply don't break.  The actually belong under a 3/4 Ton Dodge, but they don't break.  
Ahh yes but not so difficult to tune em back - no law that sez the tension screw has to be gorilla-ed down to the max -sometimes with a bit of a tweak we can turn that dodge pickup leaf into a mercury cruiser spring
Hand springs break.  Those whom own a few, or several may never experience a broken hand spring.  Those of us whom see and work on several hundred on the other hand, see quite a few broken hand springs.
4 guns five springs so far

There are always those whom suffer from severe "hardening of the attitude."  If it's worked for a hundred years, it works for me attitude.  Or in some cases, I got stupid and it's your fault.  If you know small parts are present you simply deal with them.
just sayin if you have pulled that colt down innumerable times and used to the parts and where they reside it is darn easy to forget you changed the handspring over to a plunger and ooops there it goes again  Some are well opposed to progress and improvement.  One of the benefits of coil springs is the lack of "stacking."  Oh, and while were at it, THE safest single action handguns on the PLANET have Transfer Bars.
cant disagree with that - the tradeoff on my old ruger seems to be a creepy crummy trigger - I would willingly backtrade that system for the half cock notch safety on any one of those spagetti colts we have - I can work on those

There are choices available.  We can all choose our particular features.  We have the option of selection.  Being critical of improvement and progress is rather short sighted.  Some time back, there were those who found serious flaw with the wheel.  
yeah but ---that depends on who the improvement is in aid of - there are plenty of "improvements" that do not benefit function or durability but are instead about cheapening the manufacturing process OR as you and others often point to safety improvements = lawyering  

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[Dave T]

I have single actions because I love the history of them and their roll in the settling of the West, where I live and once was a deputy sheriff. I shoot them to experience what using them was like in in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That includes shooting black powder (or substitutes) to make that experience even more realistic.

Coil springs destroy that experience, not as bad as the New Model Ruger has screwed it up but it "just ain't right".

YMMV,
Dave

[RRio]

Coffinmaker:

Thank you.   

[Coffinmaker]

RRio,

Happy to Oblige.  If need arise let me know and I'll gladly provide the part numbers (from Brownells) and the drill size.  I will caution folks, when making this change, take your time with the drill and use plenty of OIL.  If the drill snaps, your done for the day and are back to the old flat spring.

Greyhawk,

I couldn't agree more.  Some improvements really do improve the breed.  Some are stupid and just done to cut manufacturing cost.  The "enhancement" comes closes to mind, I Uberti, in their infinite wisdom "improved" the Ladle (loading gate) on the 1866.  Improved it from one that never broke, to one guaranteed to break.  STUPID!!  Improvement is wonderful.  Just making it cheaper to make is STUPID!!

[RRio]

RRio,

I couldn't agree more.  Some improvements really do improve the breed.  Some are stupid and just done to cut manufacturing cost.  The "enhancement" comes closes to mind, I Uberti, in their infinite wisdom "improved" the Ladle (loading gate) on the 1866.  Improved it from one that never broke, to one guaranteed to break.  STUPID!!  Improvement is wonderful.  Just making it cheaper to make is STUPID!!

I could not agree with you more. I have always wondered why they changed that.

[45 Dragoon]

Dave T,  done right, I don't think you'd know until you took it apart to clean it.  I replace all but the main spring with coil springs. Biggest difference is no broken springs which, I would think, extends the "experience" (unless you're looking for the occasional "surprise" broken spring for the nostalgia part of it .  .  . ).

Mike

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

There are always those whom suffer from severe "hardening of the attitude."  If it's worked for a hundred years, it works for me attitude.  Or in some cases, I got stupid and it's your fault.  If you know small parts are present you simply deal with them.  Some are well opposed to progress and improvement.  One of the benefits of coil springs is the lack of "stacking."  Oh, and while were at it, THE safest single action handguns on the PLANET have Transfer Bars.

There are choices available.  We can all choose our particular features.  We have the option of selection.  Being critical of improvement and progress is rather short sighted.  Some time back, there were those who found serious flaw with the wheel. 

  If I came across as being critical of coil springs, I apologize. I just have no use for them myself, and while I'm not against "improvement", as it were, I'm not among those who believe that improvement automatically obsoletes that which was "improved" upon. Much of what we think of as lacking in durability and quality, such as flat springs, was that way simply due to lacks in technology 100 years ago.

  My SA's all get wire trigger/bolt springs and that's it. Coil springs IMO are a field maintenance headache and make revolvers more difficult to disassemble that flat springs. My keyring sports a Proto screwdriver with which I can, if necessary, completely disassemble a Colt-style SA with flat springs.

 CHT

[Dave T]

Mike,

For a little over 10 years I regularly shot a collection of 1st Gen Colts with full power black powder loads. I shot in two or three CAS matches each month, plus practice and just having fun. Never broke a spring in any of the SAAs.

And having had a collection of OM Ruger Flattops which I shot extensively for years, yes I would notice the difference.

If you like modifying single actions, more power to you. But don't tell me I should do so or like it when it's done.

Dave

[45 Dragoon]

Why Dave!!, I didn't say you have to or that you have to like it !!  I just said "done right", I don't think you'd be able to tell (silly me!)

The done right part means it has the right sounds and " feel" of a Colt (which is the goal).  Rugers are over sprung and don't feel or sound like a Colt. Not to mention, the trigger spring and plunger in the 3screw  isn't conducive to optimum trigger feel which is why I change that to an inside the frame trigger spring (feels like it's supposed to!!)! 
 
Thanks for the "extra power" though, I do enjoy modifying single actions.

Mike

[OD#3]

I have to admit that it is much easier to achieve a silky-smooth feel to the cocking cycle with the plunger mod in place of the flat hand spring, and it DOES eliminate broken hand springs.  But as done by the Italians and most tinkerers, there IS a trade-off in terms of how positive everything feels.

With the flat hand spring, I've polished the heck out of the rear of the hand slot in the frame, followed by a mirror polish on the tip of the hand spring itself and still not managed to get as slick an action as I can with the plunger mod.  I'm not sure why a plunger sliding along the back of a hand is smoother than a flat handspring sliding along the back of the hand slot, but it is. 

Regardless, the way the Italians and most tinkerers do it, the back of the hand has the same contour as before.  And as the hand rises, the hand spring loses leverage the higher the hand goes.  By half-cock, there is much less forward spring tension by the hand against the ratchets than there would be if it had a flat hand spring.  And this has a negative effect on cylinder braking. 

For example, on my 2nd Gen. Colt, the long angled portion on the front of the hand below the top tooth is very close to the sloped backside of each ratchet tooth as the cylinder rotates.  If the cylinder tries to rotate any faster than the hand is rising, those two surfaces will engage, keeping the cylinder from outrunning the hand.  And on half-cock for loading or unloading (as long as it was timed correctly), this braking effect keeps the chambers lined up perfectly with the loading port cutout.  If I rotate the cylinder slightly past the half-cock "click" and let go, the cylinder will positively spring back into position, because of that nice, strong hand spring.  I can rotate mine almost to the next "click", and it will still spring back into position.  Try that with a modern Uberti sporting the plunger; it typically won't do that.

I know that's a "nitpick", but I like strong braking pressure from the hand, and I just don't get that with the typical plunger mod.  Many here will disagree completely with me that braking pressure is important at all, but I like it.  So the typical plunger mod is a trade-off between feel and function.  But all is not lost.....

Other tinkerers recognize the plunger mod's weakness and do more than just remove the hand spring and drill a hole through the back of the frame; they also modify the backside of the hand, adding material to make it gradually thicken towards the bottom.  Done right, this cancels out the reduction in leverage by causing the hand to compress the spring more as the hand rises.  I've seen pictures of other's mods where they silver-solder this steel "shim" to the back of the hand.  Looks like a lot of work to get right, but that's what I'd want done if I modded any of my SAA-style revolvers.  I wish Uberti and Pietta would re-contour the backs of their hands, but if you look at them now, they look exactly the same as the ones with the flat spring--they're just missing the spring.

I am also sympathetic to Dave T's criticisms.  And again, there's a trade-off.  I prefer the positive feel of traditionally-weighted flat springs.  Because every factory Colt I ever cycled had heavy springs, that's what feels "right" to me.  I recently switched out the mainsprings and trigger/bolt springs on my Colts with Lee's Gunslinger spring kits.  The action is much lighter now and correspondingly smoother to operate, but it feels "wrong".  I'm keeping the spring kits in there for now, because I recognize that they DO lessen wear to the sear surfaces, bolt legs, hammer cam, and cylinder stop notches.  Were I a competition single-action shooter, the question of springs would be a "no-brainer".  But I'm not, and the feel of cocking a traditionally-constructed single-action is part of the enjoyment of shooting them.  I also agree with Cholla that had Standard gone with a plunger handspring, there would have been howls of derision, no matter how much competitors value coil springs. 

And seriously, who's gonna compete in Cowboy Action Shooting with a $2,000 revolver?  I'm sure as heck not, and I seriously doubt anyone else will either.  The USFA that Marshal Deadwood just sold to me had only been fired 6 times, because he couldn't bring himself to run it hard and fast in competition.  And I don't blame him.  If I was going to compete with a single-action, it would be a Uberti or Pietta, highly modified with coil springs and plungers, and everything else I had to do to make it fast and easy.  And if I wore one out, I'd just buy another (they're certainly inexpensive enough).  An older Colt, USFA, and now Standard are for lazy plinking fun and the enjoyment of shooting something traditionally and finely crafted.  They can certainly be pressed into service if need be, but their primary purpose is for the former.

But since this is a Cowboy Action Shooting forum, I'll have to defer to the preferences of those who actually compete in the sport this site is all about.  Frankly, it is a nice surprise that there are even subforums here for Colt and USFA, as most competitors won't actually risk accelerating wear on expensive single actions through competitively shooting them.  Dave T was quite the intrepid competitor for using original 1st Gen Colts in CAS matches, and I know that others have and do this, but I bet they don't care all that much about speed when they're doing so.   
 

[RRio]

OD#3

[45 Dragoon]

OD#3,
  With flat hand springs, you need to also polish the outside side of the hand (all corners broken) as it will be in contact with that side  at all times (don't worry about the inside side). Breaking is very important as to the problem of throw-by and is why I use a larger diameter spring and pushrod (plunger) than the Ruger item. The contour of the backside of the hand is easy to manipulate so needed tension can be maintained.
   Though all S.A.s come with heavy factory actions that maybe "feel right" (because of your expectations) , it doesn't discount that a lightened action can "feel right" or "correct" as well!!  Heck, a Casio watch may "feel right" but so does a Rolex !! They both tell time but the real point is all about refinement. 
  Individual coils  can allow a really light hammer draw (with all the appropriate clicks) coupled with a rather heavy trigger pull .  .  .  .  . something you can't really do with flats.  Triggers are so influenced by the main spring, it is sometimes impossible to get more than a 2 1/4 - 2 1/2 lb trigger with flats .  .  . . not good if the customer wants a 3 lb trigger pull.

  As you stated in your post, a light action is much more forgiving to the shooter and the revolver which is something that folks should consider  .  .  .  . 

Mike

[OD#3]

Hey Mike,

Please don't take my above remarks as casting aspersions on yours, Coffinmaker's, or anyone else's ministrations to improve the actions of SAA-style revolvers.  Whatever one can do to improve the smoothness of the action is time well-spent.  One area where a lightened spring seems the only way to reduce drag is the bolt spring.  But this is mostly because every manufacturer, it seems, likes to leave the cylinder stop leades full of transverse machine marks.  These are impossible to stone out unless one wants to refinish them afterwards, so I can certainly see utility with using a lighter bolt spring--both to reduce felt drag during the last bit of cocking--and to reduce the amount of wear that can develop on the bolt legs and hammer cam. 

But a relatively heavy mainspring doesn't really bother me, as long as everything is smooth.  It is an entirely subjective feel, I know, and a heavier mainspring will wear out a sear earlier.  But as long as the only resistance to cocking I feel is coming from the spring and not from parts dragging, I'm happy.  So I'm still on the fence about lightened mainsprings.  I have to admit that my Colts are much easier to cock now that they have those Lee Gunslinger springs in them, but they still feel "wrong".  Again, entirely subjective and based on what I'm used to, but I don't know if I'll ever take a liking to them.  We'll see....  Right now, they're helping to protect against accelerated sear and bolt wear, so I'm keeping them in.

I'm curious as to what you do to your hands--add metal to the bottom, or remove from the top?  If there was a way to have the best of both worlds with the plunger (push rod) hand spring--smoother working but still with the same braking pressure as before--I'd be more appreciative of the plunger modification.  But the way Uberti and Pietta do it now, there's still a trade-off between feel and function. 

Regardless, though many of the tuning techniques are arguably improvements, I think it is unrealistic for anyone to expect to see them in any factory single-action that closely copies the SAA.  What you're paying for on the Standard is a gun entirely machined from barstock, with excellent metal fit, smooth internals and a nice, old-world finish.  I think Standard's marketing language, "Never before in history has an effort been put forth to produce the finest single action revolver..." quite a bit over the top.  Comparing mine with a USFA premium, I'd say that Standard is very, very close in quality, even surpassing USFA in a few small details.  But it is not the finest factory single action that ever was.  I just think it is the finest US-made SAA-style single action being produced today, flat springs and all.  And it bugs me just a little when folks deride their effort for not having included a plunger in place of the hand spring and a wire spring for the bolt/trigger spring.  Those just wouldn't be traditional.  And despite Standard not setting out to directly reproduce a specific generation of Colt, I think most collectors still appreciate that they use the traditional flat springs. 

Besides, had they incorporated all the tweaks developed by CAS gunsmiths, no one would send any to you or other tuners for custom work. 

 

[LonesomePigeon]

I like flat springs for authenticity and ease of dis/reassembly. I like medium heavy springs and 3 - 4 lb. trigger. To me that is "right" for an out-of-the-box gun, unless it's being marketed specifically for racing or target shooting. If the parts are well fitted and well polished the springs don't feel so heavy and if the trigger is crisp it's good.

[45 Dragoon]

OD#3,
  I absolutely don't take your remarks as "casting aspersions"! Everyone has their own idea of "perfection" which includes a mixture of "what I'll put up with". You even say that a heavy mainspring is OK if everything else is smooth .  .  .  and I understand what you mean. It's just that a heavy main won't ever beat a main that is lighter (all else being the same). I know it's not all about speed but you don't have to race just because you have a race car! (But, you have a race car if you ever change your mind!!)
  Many of my customers have tired, arthritic thumbs (probably from not minding heavy mains lol!) so now, they need really light hammers to keep playing. My Dragoons (full time cartridge guns) have a just under 3 lb. Hammer draw and a just over 2 lb (+) trigger pulls. Big ol gun, easy to operate, big ol holes and extremely accurate. I say that  to show:  an 8 lb. Hammer x 10 shots is 80lbs your thumb moved. A 3 lb. Hammer x10 shots is 30 lbs. and equals longer lasting thumbs! [ I'd say improvement]

    As for the bolt spring, it can be a big drag when cycling the action but taking it down to 2-3 lbs of force can make it all but disappear!  [Definitely an improvement]
  Bolt arm thining and cam height reducing/polishing can open up gobs of stored energy in a falling hammer. [Definitely an improvement for parts life and ignition reliability]
   With just these "improvements" (which all can be felt), I can see a "Standard" Standard and a "Deluxe" Standard!!

As for your question about the hand profiling, I mark the tracking of the pushrod (each one is made custom for each revolver) and adjust the thickness accordingly. The Horse guns can be profiled to actually reduce tension at 1/2 cock while loading, and gain tension for braking action during the rest of the cycle. (Hands are hardened before final fitting)

Mike
  

[Dave T]

Dave T was quite the intrepid competitor for using original 1st Gen Colts in CAS matches, and I know that others have and do this, but I bet they don't care all that much about speed when they're doing so.

OD#3,

Back in the mid 1980s I had two Ubertis I was not happy with when I stumbled upon a 1st Gen black powder Colt 45 in a local gunshot. Someone had cleaned it up and made it "purty" by rebluing the whole gun. Then they carried and shot it enough to make it look kind of tired. I bought it for the price of a Ruger Blackhawk and started loading black powder 45 Colt rounds. I was hooked.

I ended up with a collection of 1st Gen Colts that people had neglected or abused. I also was lucky enough to know an old gunsmith who understood the SAA. He rebuilt them in to decent looking and excellent shooting black powder 45s.

Life happened and I had to sell them all. Now in my retirement years, when I wanted to recapture the fun I had back then, I find I can't afford shootable 1st Gen Colts. Next best thing (and they ain't cheep either) are late production USFA single actions. They look, handle and shoot like those long gone Colts so I still get to smile when I go to the range and make some smoke.

Dave

PS: I never won a CAS match but my goal was always to shoot the stages clean. I managed to do that fairly regularly, but at non-competitive speeds.

[OD#3]

Dang Dave, I hope I wasn't stepping on your toes.  But I'm glad to hear that you were more concerned with running clean than fast. Refinished or not, I'd have been reluctant to run a 1st gen very hard myself.  Shame you had to offload those 1st Gens.  I guess we never know sometimes just how much some guns are going to appreciate.  I still kick myself for letting an HKP7 go for $600.  If I'd known they were going to quit making them....

Glad you've been able to recreate the 1st gen experience using USFA's.  The only 1st Gen I ever had was made in 1912.  It was originally in .32-20, but it had been returned to Colt in the 1950's and had been converted to .45 Colt with a new barrel, cylinder, and hammer.  I liked its action, but having never handled an all original 1st Gen myself, I'll never know if mine was typical for a 1st Gen or a 1950's 2nd Gen.  Like you, "life got in the way", and I had to sell it.  Still regretting that.

Been shooting that BP Premium you got from Yahoody much?  I haven't forgotten that I owe you a range report on the .44 Special Rodeo I got from you about that same time.  It will be featured alongside a lot of other SA's soon.   

[Dave T]

OD#3,

Yea, I'm shooting it. Funny thing is, it is so well put together with a minimum barrel cylinder gap, it chokes on black powder (FFFg Old Einsford). Before finishing the second cylinder it starts dragging really bad. My solution has been to switch to Black M-Z. Twice now I've been through 20 rounds of Black M-Z at the end of a shooting session and the cylinder is still turning freely. Glad I tried that stuff. I can make smoke with my too well made USFAs (LOL).

Dave