Allin Breech Loading Rifles .45 CF in civilian hands?

[Doc Jackson]

Im reading over some of the sales records of Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham from 1868-1886. Its very interesting and details those firearms (Mostly surplus long arms) that the company shipped out West by caliber, type, and number sold. What is confusing are entries listed as  Allin Rifles 45 Cal CF. It also lists Needham Rifles .58 Cal CF and Allin Rifles 50 Cal CF. I understand the last two to be military surplussed rifles, the .58 Caliber Needham conversions and 50-70 trapdoors.

We all know well that 50-70 trapdoors were certainly used by civilians, but to my knowledge 45-70 trapdoors werent, save for a few target rifles but they werent common. Is there some other 45 cal Allin rifle that Ive never heard of? Whats going on?

It lists having shipped:

Allin Rifles 45 Cal CF - 1902
Allin Carbines 45 Cal CF - 396
Allin Rifles 50 Cal CF - 2083
Needham Rifles 58 Cal CF - 180

The earliest orders of the 45 Allin are October 5, 1877. two orders of 10 rifles (20 total) shipped to San Francisco, Cal, described as:

1 case    10 Allin Rifles & Bayts Brown 45 Cal CF New

[DJ]

Just happened to glance at a reprint of the December 1884 pricelist for Meacham Arms Co in St. Louis the other day and then saw your post.  On the "Breech-Loading Fire-Arms" page they list "United States Springfield Rifles, 45-70, model now used by the U.S.Army, with knife-blade extractor" for $10.  A "perfectly new gun" of the same type is $12.50.  They also list 45-70 Springfield carbines in 45-70 (new and, apparently, used) plus Springfield knife-blade extractor rifles and carbines in 50-70 (presumably 2nd model Allins), Springfield 2-band 50-70 rifles and carbines with the "Remington system" (I would guess these are 1872 Models), plus "Remington Rifles, New York State Model" in 50-70.  On a separate page they list and picture a .45-70 Springfield sporting rifle with checkering and a half-length Schnable-type forearm.

I didn't see any surplus .58 rimfire guns (Needham or 1st Allin), but they did have 56-60 Spencers by the crate (in limited quantities).

I don't know if this helps, but it looks like trapdoors were available to the public at least by the end of 1884.

--DJ

[Doc Jackson]

Thanks, can you tell me where I can get that catalog?

[Advertising]

[DJ]

It's a 32-page reprint by Gun Digest--I got it off Ebay couple years ago for the Merwin Hulbert listings.  I'm not sure how old the reprint is, but the address for Gun Digest doesn't have a zip code, so probably close to 50 years.

Here's a copy of the breechloader page, if that helps.

[edit:  had to crop off bottom part of page with Sharps Creedmore to make photo small enough to post]

[looks like Cornell Pubs may be selling a reproduction of the price list]

[Doc Jackson]

Thank you sir, you're a real gentleman.

[Doc Jackson]

No 21 lists the .58 cal CF Needham rifles. I wonder why the 45-70 rifles were being sold to civilians?  If you wanted to know I got my information from Arming The West by Herbert G. Houze. Its a study of the sales records of Schuyler, Hartley, and Graham from 1868 -1886; its been a good source.

[Galloway]

Just noticed those 44 open tops how interesting! I've seen several plated originals in fact.

[Doc Jackson]

I just got my copy of the 1883 Meacham Arms Co catalog and is list the same thing for 45-70 trapdoors. So they were available from that company in 1883 and possibly earlier; SH&G was selling them in 1877. Both companies were still selling a large amount of percussion muskets, both cut down into shotguns and original with full kit to go with them, into the 1880's. In fact 1842 Muskets were one of SH&G's most popular items selling into 1886. SH&G sold a ton of surplus Enfields

What really struck me was how expensive SxS breech loading shotguns were. @DJ I really appreciate you turning me onto this catalog, it has helped with my research greatly.

[DJ]

Doc--

Glad I could help.  it's sometimes amazing how a cross reference from a seemingly unrelated source of information can bolster or dispell preconceptions or assumptions.  As to why Springfield might supply guns to Meachams, well in those days I think the government might have actually wanted the population to be armed--at least west of the Mississippi.

---DJ

[Drydock]

Perhaps I can shed a little light on this:  In 1879, there occurred what was known in Army circles as "The Great Turn-in".  In this year the Ordnance Department  began scheduling relatively large scale turn-ins and exchanges of older weapons for replacement, refurbishment and rebuilds.  Priority was given to rifles and carbines with SNs under 50000.

 By the end of 1878 over 100000 Springfield .45 weapons of all types had been produced, enough to furnish both the regular army and State arsenals twice over at that time.  Thus once refurbished,  most of these older arms were sold off to commercial retailers, to help raise money for the continuously underfunded army and arsenal.

Smaller lots of older arms, including .45s, were sold earlier, I think 1877 might be the earliest date, but 1879 marks the first big numbers.

Source - "Trapdoor Springfield"  Waite and Ernst.

[Doc Jackson]

Thank you Drydock, that adds another piece to the puzzle, do you recommend "Trapdoor Springfield"  Waite and Ernst ?

[Doc Jackson]

Also I was reading about the counterfeit copies of .45 trapdoors, does anyone have any pictures of these rifles? I understand that Bannerman's sold many but that pretty much falls outside of the period we're discussing. I would like to know, who was making or selling them before that? We're counterfeit trapdoors a common thing?

[Drydock]

Yes I do.  It is one of the best reference books dedicated to the Allin system rifles.

[Trailrider]

Just a sidelight on civilian usage of .45-70 and .50-70 military arms. There were some situations where the Army gave rifles and carbines to citizens (as civilians were called back then). Farmers and ranchers whose homes were not in close proximity to Army troops, and where hostiles were known to be raiding, and those families that didn't have adequate firearms to defend themselves, were authorized to be issued Army firearms.  There was, in fact, a Special Order authorizing such issuance. (Sorry, can't find it right now, but I have it someplace.) Prior to 1874, the arms would probably include .50-70 Trapdoor Springfields and Spencer carbines. After 1874, there were a plethora of .50-70's around, including Sharps cartridge conversion carbines. But M1873 Springfields in .45-70 could be issued if necessary. In addition, there were a lot of instances where deserting troops took their issued guns with them, and then sold them to civilians!

[Fox Creek Kid]

On the Frontier to be a civilian in possession of one was a serious offense at that time if you had no proof of lawful provenance. An incident describing this is in the book "Firearms of the Old West" by Worman. Many were sold out West by deserters. As for SH&G, surely they were "connected" with Military higher ups and IMO it was plain corruption. Interestingly, the martial Spencers were treated like gold and few if any were sold to civilians until the early 1870's when the Military had decided (approx. 1871) to replace them with Sharps conversions in .50 Gov't. That however was quickly supplanted by the Terry Board's decision on a new .45 cal. CF weapon in 1872 which we know as the 45-70 Trapdoor.

[Arizona Trooper]

When the pre-50K Trapdoors were called in they were broken up into parts and sold off. Lots of surplus operations bought the parts and put them back together for sale on the civilian market. That's why it is so hard today to find a really correct early trapdoor rifle or carbine. The vast majority of survivors are parts guns. SH&G had a deal with Whitney to build sporting rifles out of surplus Springfield parts. Some of these are really deluxe, almost as nice as the Springfield Officers Models. Others are more plain. Most have heavi-ish octagon barrels, plains rifle style stocks and are chambered 45-70. Other chamberings and styles are known. None are common, but they sure are neat rifles.