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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks (Moderators: Delmonico, Pitspitr)  |  Topic: I Give Up... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: I Give Up...  (Read 1008 times)
Guns Garrett
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« on: July 03, 2018, 01:50:21 pm »


No, I haven't given up GAF...but the Martini-Henry carbine that I have shot in my past two musters has convinced me that it is not conducive for shooting for a prolonged period, therefore, I have "been persuaded" to give the carbine a new home with Cody Wolf.  He has been fully apprised of the carbine's quirks and faults.

Doing some research, I have found that I was REALLY over-doing it.  Calculations show that the recoil energy of a 7-pound M-H carbine is in the neighborhood of 38 ft-lbs of energy.  By comparison, a 30-lb, .50 BMG Barrett produces 43 ft-lbs.   A 15-pound .338 Lapua produces 28 ft-lb, a .300 Win Mag 27 ft-lb, and a .30-06 24 ft-lb.  So, I was submitting myself to too much abuse for a sustained amount of shooting of a "really cool" weapon..

I am considering trading in my Red tunic for Blue (and khaki), as well. I'm thinking 20th Kansas Volunteer Infantry, who were raised to serve in the Spanish-American war, but arrived in the Philippines in November 98, after the fighting was over, but before the Treaty of Paris officially ended the War. They remained in P.I. during the beginning of the Philippine Insurrection (99-02), and returned to the US later that first year and mustered out 28 October 1899.

As a Volunteer unit, the 20th was armed with the Trapdoor Springfield rifle, which I believe will be much more comfortable and economical to shoot, and the 1884 Field Uniform is pretty easily and cheaply acquired - plus much cooler.
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smoke
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2018, 05:55:30 pm »

  Shocked Shocked That's a lot of recoil!!

Was it an original carbine?  I've wanted a carbine version for a while to go with rifle.  My MH is dated 1879 and actually Canadian marked, kinda rare.

Drop me a pm if you are selling any of the other kit.  I would be interested in some of it.

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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2018, 07:41:37 pm »

I' ve already sold it.  I had suspicions mine was a Khyber Pass copy, and the buyer was aware of this, as well.
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 08:46:01 pm »

I understood that you sold it. 

When you say Khyber pass, built there or one of the British guns that was cut down or modified there?  What was your impression of the gun....other than smacking you hard. Smiley 

Any pics of you shooting it? 

I've been a huge fan of the MH since I saw Zulu many years ago.
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Drydock
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 08:55:11 pm »

I know it hurt me watching you shoot it!   Shocked
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Niederlander
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 09:15:11 pm »

I know it hurt me watching you shoot it!   Shocked
Me too!
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 09:42:37 pm »

"Khyber Pass" copies are copies of weapons made by local Afghan blacksmiths and artisans.  There are copies of Martinis, Sniders, Lee -Enfields, even Webley pistols and Russian SKSs and AKs. Some are of very high quality in both material and workmanship - however it seems the majority are inferior, made of railroad iron, car springs and axles, or even scrap pig iron.  Gun Digest had an article from the early 80s about the guns, and how the Mujahadin and Taliban used them to fight the Soviets.  A large number have been brought back recently by US military members, and at one time many were imported by Sportsmans Warehouse.  I could never confirm whether the one I had was genuine.  I put a couple hundred rounds thru it and still have all my fingers and both eyes....just sayin, tho....CAVEAT EMPTOR.
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 09:46:41 pm »

As far as " my impression" of the gun...I've wanted one since I was a kid.  I guess I saw "Zulu" when it was first released.  If I had to do it all over again...I would go with a .303 Martini-Enfield...
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 10:09:21 pm »

Initial research seems to show (in contemporary photos) that the 20th KVI wore blue Army Shirts with lt. blue trousers and khaki Mills belts (the trousers are darker than the belts) A few photos show some may have worn khaki trousers and blue belts.  One photo (posed) shows them  in blue 5-button blouses and light blue trousers.  The unit only existed for about a year and a half (Apr 98 - Oct 99).

In all photos showing arms, the rifles appear to be pre-1884 Trapdoors (no Buffington sight, angular bayonet), and the cleaning rod appears to have a simple button end, not a grooved/cannelured cleaning jag, so...maybe 1873?  Or 1878? 
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 10:34:47 pm »

Guns..thanks for the info.  I remember that article. so I am kinda vaguely familiar with them.  I didn't understand one of those or one of the IMA guns......not sure I would have the stones to shoot a "Khyber pass" rifle. Shocked 

WPG has a pretty nice copy of the darker blue (1884?) trousers.  $65 or so.
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 10:39:58 pm »

Found it.

http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/6750-US-M1885-Trousers/
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2018, 11:30:58 pm »

Guns, the WPG Trousers were what I was wearing at the banquet. They seem to be well made. The pocket and lining material is fairly heavy canvas, and the front pockets seem deeper than some other reproduction uniform pants. S&S Firearms sells the 5 button jacket I was wearing. And WPG is where I got my leggins also, they have both the darker tan and khaki.
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 10:06:15 am »

I found quite a few photos of the 20th KVI in action - even an Edison movie of a re-enactment done in New Jersey by the NJNG.  Here are a couple of the better/clearer ones:


* post-5143-0-19775000-1398525193.jpg (108.34 KB, 751x478 - viewed 29 times.)

* 20th%20Kansas%20engages%20filipinos%201899.jpg (63.85 KB, 500x423 - viewed 31 times.)

* 20th%20Kansas%20wounded%20soldier.jpg (55.72 KB, 500x471 - viewed 27 times.)

* fighting 20th.jpg (44.31 KB, 640x335 - viewed 25 times.)
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2018, 10:09:36 am »

I did find a couple of photos, one captioned "20th Kansas Boys Were Met By Conquered Natives", that shows them armed with Krags, the other photo is their "welcome home" parade in Topeka in Nov 1899.  All other photos show them with Trapdoors.   The 20th had a good reputation for their actions in the Philippine Insurrection, in part due to having a photographer "imbedded" in the unit, and many of the photos are ACTUAL "combat photos", not staged.

The Regiment's Colonel, Frederick Funston, was quite remarkable. Born in Ohio in 1867, his family moved to Iola KS (about 30 mi. south of Garnett) when he was an infant.  He attended KU, worked as a journalist, and spent a year working with the US Dept of Agriculture as a Botanist in Death Valley and Alaska. In 1896, he went to Cuba to fight as a mercenary alongside the Cuban rebels.  When Pres. McKinley asked for volunteers regiments from the States in 1898, Funston returned home and presented himself to the Kansas Governor for service.  The 20th Kansas Volunteer Infantry was formed, with Funston appointed Colonel.  Funston was awarded the Medal of Honor for heroic actions in the Philippines during the insurrection, and when the Regiment returned to the US, Funston remained, and promoted to Brigadier General in the Regular Army. He led the assault that resulted in the capture of self-proclaimed President of the Philippines Emilio Aquinaldo.  After P.I. Funston was assigned as Dept Governor of the Philippines for a short time, then Military Governor of the Territory of Hawaii.  In 1906, he was Commanding General of the Presidio at San Francisco during the Great Earthquake.  His actions during that disaster was credited with saving many lives and property.  In 1916, now-Major General Funston was Commanding General of the Southern District of the U.S. during the Mexican Punitive Expedition, and was Pres. Wilson's pick to lead the AEF in Europe in WWI, however Funston dropped dead of a heart attack in Jan 1917 - he was replaced by his immediate subordinate, "Black Jack" Pershing.


* How%20the%2020th%20Kansas%20Boys%20were%20met%20by%20conquered%20natives,%20Philippines.jpg (73.39 KB, 500x510 - viewed 36 times.)

* 00206666.jpg (104.95 KB, 1000x597 - viewed 43 times.)
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Baltimore Ed
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2018, 10:26:43 am »

I also wanted a .45 Martini but the dies and brass costs shied me away. Navy Arms imported -built? them in the 70s in .45-70. I had one of their rolling blocks. I did find a nice Kangaroo Martini in .357 mag a few years ago. I like it alot. If I could find one in .45-70 but still in the military wood, everyone that Iíve found in .45-70 has been sporterized. They look good but you just canít hang a bayonet on the end.

ĎíNo comedians pleaseĒ.


* 6458B6DC-BE1A-4AF0-B012-F66565FA8B47.jpeg (395.95 KB, 2048x2732 - viewed 40 times.)
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 10:35:44 am »

More photos of the 20th Kansas:

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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2018, 01:08:25 pm »

An Edison film (silent) depicting the 20th Kansas:
https://www.loc.gov/item/98501192/
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Drydock
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2018, 01:44:57 pm »

That's a great portrayal, if only because you have the choice of using either a Trapdoor or a Krag should you wish, with all the documentation right there.

 By July of 1898 Springfield was producing over 400 Krags a day, and this rate would be maintained until July of 1899. Many state/volunteer units were rearmed with Krags while in the Phillipines.
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2018, 02:00:55 pm »

I think I may start a new thread topic on the 20th Kansas.  A lot of interesting stuff...
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2018, 04:58:20 pm »

Just ordered my "new" rifle"  M1884 Springfield Trapdoor, manufactured 1890.  Check's in the mail...
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2018, 08:18:13 am »

Just ordered my "new" rifle"  M1884 Springfield Trapdoor, manufactured 1890.  Check's in the mail...
Glad to hear it!
With you ordering a rifle it would appear that you thought the GM was worth coming back to. ?
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Guns Garrett
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2018, 09:40:22 am »

Oh, there was never any doubt that I would not return for another Muster - just as to how or what I would return AS.  I am leaning toward 20th Kansas in the Span-Am, or Infantry in 1880s Arizona - George Crook's campaign to capture Geronimo
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Drydock
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2018, 01:28:52 pm »

That M1884's gonna feel like a 22 after shooting that Martini carbine . . .
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2018, 01:39:56 pm »

Observation: the "Welcome Home" parade seems to show M1902 bell crown caps.  Wonder when that picture was actually taken, and of what unit, maybe a later reunion of the regiment perhaps?  Maybe a july 4 parade?
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