Author Topic: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS  (Read 2848 times)

Offline Teddydogno1

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First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« on: June 23, 2018, 08:19:36 PM »
EDIT to add pics and adjust group size comments.

I did shoot the Spencer this week.  Worked great!  I was prepared for some finicky feeding, but didn't experience it.  The Buffalo Arms ammo worked well through the action and shot OK.  I shot 39 rounds...saved one box plus one round so I can measure them for length. bullet diameter, etc.  Since they fed so well, I will use their length for a starting point when I load my own.  I also want to take the one round apart to measure the bullet and powder charge.

The BA ammo is loaded with BP.  The real thing, I think, based on smell and cloud of smoke.  At 25 yards from a bag, I shot one decent group of 5 into under 2.5" (with center hold, it was about 5 inches high).  See the RED Group 1 in the pic below.



Then I moved to a 50 yard target and put 12 rounds into a pattern about 12 inches wide by 6 inches tall.  Much of this can be attributed to the coarse sights and difficulty in holding a fine sight picture.  I think.



Then I went back to shooting at 25 yards and got results that were...odd.  At 25 yards, any carbine should be able to hold a fair group, right?  Sight alignment didn't seem like a problem.  I changed to a 6 o'clock hold and squeezed the first two into about an inch nicely centered and just above point of aim.  Then then next 3 using the same hold and careful firing ended up at the edge of the target 6 inches away, but all within an inch!  WTF?  I continued firing with the same care and sight picture and ended up quite a few more in a good cluster at the left edge of the target, but also other scattered between there and the original 2 shots.  Again...WTF?  Looking at the target after all was said and done, I COULD draw circles around 4 groups of 5 shots and pretend it was on purpose.  But it wasn't.  20 rounds at 25 yards from a front bag rest and the group size is like 7 x 7.  See the GREEN Group 2 in the 25 yard pic above.

The way the impact was moving around, I thought maybe the sights were loose and jumping from one place to another, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  The hammer WAS a little loose, but would that account for a big change in horizontal impact?  Other thoughts are that the ammo is inconsistent; the bullets too large or too small; the fouling build up was to blame;  heat build up to blame;  barrel pressure from the foreend.

I'll come back and add some pics of the targets.

Cleaning was kind of a pain.  There are a LOT of nooks and crannies in that action!  I took the action apart including removing the upper block and the firing pin assembly.  The foreend is a bit tight.  The screw seems to hold it on entirely and the band seems more for appearance.

Rob

Offline El Supremo

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Re: First range session with new Spencer
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 08:39:42 PM »
Hello:
Fouling shouldn't account for your sort of wandering groups.  Have had others get them with other BP breech loaders.  
Could be SIGHT PICTURE variations or resting pressures.
Any TIPPED/YAWED bullet HOLES in the target?
The bullets could be slightly loosened/tipped during cycling so try single loading.
Watch that the extractor blade is forward of the rim to avoid a nasty jammed action.
Close the action slowly.
Be sure to clean the extractor slot alongside the chamber WELL.  Soft pipe cleaners work.  
Please keep us posted.  
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
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Offline FinnO

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2018, 03:16:26 PM »
I have the same problem, I cast my own bullets from a Buffalo Arms mould (56-56 .539) and load em with 35 grain of Swizz BP. I also have a sharps carbine in 50-70 and a trapdoor carbine in 45-70, and the Spencer is the only one that behaves this way. Like you my hammer is also a bit loose, so atleast we have that too in common  ;D. The only other time I have had fliers like I do with my Spencer, was when I worked out loads for my minie rifles, so most likely in my case atleast, it is probably a combination of load, bullet sizing and weight difference in my cast bullets. Best of luck with your Spencer, and If you get a revelation, please inform me  ;)

Finn O. E. Fosse

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #3 on: Today at 06:01:27 PM »

Offline El Supremo

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 06:32:56 PM »
Hello, again:

Shot holes look nice and square for consistent stability.

Not sure about that loose hammer issue.  Have heard as it relates to other heavy, side hammer locks, that looseness contributes to erratic ignition, but your groups seem way too separated for that to be the only thing.  Best to have that looseness corrected so you are not unsure.  

Have asked a knowledgeable friend about the looseness.  Will report his info.

Maybe "Herbert" can help on the hammer looseness significance.

In other Civil War era breechloaders, Maynards in particular, an irregular shoulder in the end of the chamber can play havoc with accuracy from an otherwise fine barrel.

Ask another shooter of repute to try a group or two.

All the best,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

Offline El Supremo

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2018, 03:46:20 PM »
More info:

Ok, my guru BPCR buddies shooting PRIMER ignited cartridges are not sure a loose SIDE hammer creates accuracy issues.
But, others experienced with side hammer CAPLOCK MUSKETS do think loose hammers create erratic ignition and at least enlarged groups.

The BPCR guys say the SPENCER hammer looseness can/should be cured by removing the lock, stripping it so the tumbler remains in the lock plate and then gently tapping the hammer further onto the tumbler stud.  Do NOT try to cure the looseness by tightening the hammer screw further into the tumbler or it may break off the head. Don't risk a broken mainspring by using channel locks to compress the mainspring.  If the spring jumps from the jaws, it may break as it expands.

Use a mainspring vise.  TRACK OF THE WOLF has them.

Suspicions about causes of erratic group CENTERING, beyond bench technique and eye sight/sight picture issues, include excessive headspace, wrong bullet length for the twist, incorrect bullet diameter and a defective muzzle crown. By the way, it can be difficult to "see" a damaged crown.

Bullet sized OD should be .001" to .0015" over GROOVE diameter.  Can carefully drive a lightly lubed pure lead slug 1/4" into the muzzle.  Use a flexible cleaning rod to tap it out. Or drill a 1/8" hole so that a dry wall screw can be used to pull it out.  Cerrosafe can be cast into the chamber end to gauge groove depth at the beginning of the rifling.  Watch for that extractor cut and any "wedge" that might have been created between the chamber and extractor cut. BROWNELLS sells CERROSAFE with easy instructions.

Test for loose headspace by seeing what thickness feeler gauge leaf will fit between case head and block AS the block is gently closed on an empty case.  Up to .010" is ok, per a friend that has rebarreled many.  BUT, REVIEW OF SAAMI C-Fire RIMMED 30-40 Krag and 45-70 HEADSPACE DRAWINGS CLEARLY indicates that the tolerance between maximum and minimum headspace is .007"!
BUT, for rimmed handgun cartridges such as the 44 Mag and 45 Colt, the headspace tolerance ranges between .010" and .012".

Are fired primers flush with case head or protruding?

Please keep us posted.

Respectfully,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

Offline Teddydogno1

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 01:13:34 PM »
Wow!  Thanks for gathering that info.

Rob

Offline steved66

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 10:13:19 PM »
My two cents:

1) I purchased 2 x 20 boxes of Spencer rounds from Buffalo arms and the groups were widely inconsistent, similar to your results.  From there I reloaded the brass using 2F black powder and the bullets cast from the Lee mold offered by Lodgewood and the groups were much tighter.  I don't have a lot of confidence in the consistency of the bullets supplied by Buffalo Arms.

2) I noted that on some of the targets I shot with my original M1860 carbine there would be a nice group in the center and a similarly tight group a few inches to the left (same elevation, just to the left).  Same batch of bullets, same string of 7 shots.  I couldn't figure out why as the sights were not loose and I use the same sight picture from a bench rest.  I converted mine using a centerfire block from S&S and when I was cleaning the gun I noticed as I let the hammer down onto the firing pin, some times it would hit the little ridge on the left side of the firing pin, not the flat, and the block would be pushed to the left.  When the hammer was let down square on the main flat part of the firing pin, the breech block was pushed straight forward.  I figured that could be why I got tight groups a few inches to the left of center.  When the hammer hit flush the shots hit the center.  When the hammer hit the ridge on the left edge the shots grouped to the left.  I filed away some metal from that perpendicular ridge along the left side of the firing pin so when the hammer let down it always hit the flat.  Cured the problem.  If I remember correctly from your other posts, you are shooting a repro Spencer.  I don't know how the firing pin is shaped compared to that on the S&S conversion block, but if it is not completely flat and has a ridge along its left side, maybe the same thing is happening to you.

Offline Teddydogno1

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Re: First range session with new Spencer NOW WITH PICS
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 12:35:18 PM »
Thanks for the info!  I'll check that out.  I ordered a Lee mold from Lodgewood, too, and I wasn't planning to really worry about this consistency problem until I had tried some other loads (mine).

Rob

 

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