Author Topic: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?  (Read 7191 times)

Offline Hobble Creek Al

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45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« on: April 06, 2018, 09:09:44 AM »
I've been a Starline brass shooter for years.  When running minimum 5.5 Trail Boss with 200 gr RNFP, dirty brass seems to be a constant.  Any other 45 Colt brands better at sealing the chamber?

Thanks

Offline Four Eyes Henry

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 09:32:27 AM »
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 02:12:42 PM »
HO Kay!!  I'll irritate some, but there are only two ways to really mitigate or eliminate Blow-By with 45 Colt Brass.  Method number one is to start with 44-40 brass, fire form to straight wall (New Starline 44-40 is straight) and load as 45.  No Blow-By.  Method number two is to anneal your brass.  With annealed brass .... no blow-by.

Had run errand

PS:  45 Colt brass is manufactured too thick to expand to seal the chamber (you already know that).  Some will say you have to go to cannon balls loaded to the max and double your cost forever.  Horse Pucky.  I like starting with new Starline 44-40 brass, carefully run it thru my 45 Colt expander die, then load and crimp as a 45.  Until it's fired the first time, the round looks really goofy.  Works a treat.

I was not in the past, a fan of annealing.  Thought it a huge waste of time and energy.  Then, a friend shamed me into trying it.  Well .... by golly it works.  Annealing served to save a special custom 44 Trapper I built and allows me to shoot my Henry's with 45 Schofield cases without Blow-By.  It's boring, but well worth the effort.  A BIG thank you to OD#3 for pushing me over the edge.  It is flat, ya know!!!

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 03:05:45 AM »

Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 04:24:09 PM »
Coffinmaker,

Your answer really intrigues me.  I can get Starline 44-40, using my Cabelas points. 

Your comment

"fire form to straight wall (New Starline 44-40 is straight) and load as 45.", particularly the part within the ( ) confused me.  Are you saying the "New Starline 44-40 is straight"?  Meaning it doesn't have a shoulder, tapering down in diameter to the neck?

Thanks,

Alan

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 08:08:43 PM »
Hobbie,

That is correct.  NEW Starline 44-40 is, well it's not really "straight" as it tapered a little.  However, NEW Starline brass has no shoulder.  Just a slight taper to the case.  A nice easy trip thru the Dillon Expander/Beller/Powder drop die and presto, it's ready to seat a 45 bullet.  I personally prefer a 452 for my rifles and pistols. 

When fired, the strange looking round as first loaded, fills right out and becomes a straight walled 45 case.  Since I start with new brass, I have yet to have a case split.  I use anywhere from 160Gr bullets to 200Gr bullets, crimped firmly in the crimp groove and have NO Blow-By.  I shoot an entire match and the Carrier Block/Mortice are as clean as a 44-40 rifle.  At the end of a match I just chamber a fired round and run a couple of wet patches (PAM), a dry patch, an Oil patch and I'm done.

Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 12:22:30 AM »
Thank you CM.  Using my Cabelas points, I ordered a bag of Starline 44-40 brass and a 500 count box of Oregon Trail Laser Cast 200 gr RNFP in 452".  Got my XL650 just waiting for the two to show up, hopefully next week.


Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 07:08:18 PM »
Brass arrived. 

1. Should I fire form in the Uberti 1873 or the SASS Vaqueros or does it matter?

2. I'm running 5.5 Trailboss and 200 gr RNFP.  Use that load or up the charge to help the cases expand fully?

3. Any issues fire forming during a match?

Thanks CM,

Alan

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2018, 07:25:21 PM »

Uberti is known for GENEROUS chambers.  Blow-By in your rifle is WAY more of a problem then your handguns.  Therefore, I'd shoot em through your rifle.  I'd shoot the same load you are currently shooting and see the result with that load.

The only issue you may encounter firing them during a match is the funny look your going to get from the folks at the loading table  ::)
There gonna think you've lost it with those funny lookin rounds.

Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 07:31:33 PM »
Quickly loaded up 3 on the Dillon 650 without a hitch.  Length is within .010" as is the rim diameter.    They look pretty normal, loaded.  During the loading process..... :o

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 10:37:12 AM »
You don't have to fireform the brasss. They are perfectly shootable as they come. When fired, they will conform to the chamber they were fired in. After the first shot resize them for the tightest chamber. If you insist on fireforming, don't just sit at the bench! Get up on your hind legs and get some beneficial practise done.

FWIW, my OMV's have very tight chambers , but they are earlier manufacture and the Ruger chambering may have changed somewhat.
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2018, 01:24:04 PM »
Hi Sir Charles   :D

I probably miss-used the term "Fire Form."  The 44-40 brass will form to the 45 chamber it's fired in.  And since it forms to the chamber as it is fired, Fire Forming seems the best description.

Ruger OMV have /had nice snug chambers.  Unfortunately, Ruger OMV also had way undersize cylinder throats as well.  99.9% of the Rugers I had come thru the shop had to have the throats reamed.  45s were the worst but 357s were problematic as well.  From a professional standpoint, Ruger are built hell for stout but some dimensions were crap.  From a personal standpoint, I've never liked Ruger.

Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2018, 07:35:05 PM »
They worked great.  I shot my first ever, CAS match yesterday and used the 44-40 brass loads for the match.  I did use them in the Taylor/Uberti Comanchero I bought without a single hiccup.  I'd post pics of the brass, before and after but since cascity doesn't allow me to use postimages.org, I can't.  They still look a little "tweaked" after firing/tumbling but as long as they work....

Thank you again, CM.

Alan

Offline major

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2018, 08:33:52 PM »
why can't we use postimages on Cascity?
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Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 12:33:23 AM »
unfired 44-40 on the left.  Fired 44-40 in the middle.  45 Colt on the right.

<a href="https://postimg.cc/image/lldamcq9r/" target="_blank"><img src="https://s19.postimg.cc/ut5j31xc3/44-40_fired_45_Colt.jpg" alt="44-40_fired_45_Colt"/></a>

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 12:28:12 PM »

LOVE IT when a plan COMES TOGETHER (Stolen Famous TV Line)   ;D

The cases will continue to fill out as you use them.  Mine fill out first time 'cause I'm shooting a good load of APP.  BOOMBA  :o

Offline Roscoe

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 12:29:50 PM »
This idea of using 44-40 Starline for 45 Colt seems crazy to me. I have 500 new Starline 44-40 cases. I can't say when they were made, but they were bought direct within the last couple years. Not only are they NOT straight wall, but the case mouths are very thin and easy to ruin when a press doesn't index perfectly, aligning the die. Expanding that thin mouth to 45 Colt dimensions is just going to create a weaker case, if not a split.

A couple thoughts about getting a better fit of a real 45 Colt case to chamber...sizing new brass can be counterproductive, causing galling on the expander. If you check them in a gauge, I think you will find they drop just fine.

RCBS Cowboy dies treat everything a bit larger in diameter, specifically for lead bullets. That will give less working of the brass between fire-formed and sized. The Hornady Cowboy set does not do that, consisting of only a larger expander, resulting in galling.

Offline Hobble Creek Al

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 08:11:57 PM »
Are you able to click on the link and see the pics?

Offline Roscoe

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 09:07:43 PM »
Are you able to click on the link and see the pics?
Yes, I see the pic. My new brass doesn't look like that, and fired brass (from a 44-40) doesn't either. The cases are clearly necked.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2018, 12:52:19 PM »
Hi Roscoe,

Allow me to explain.  First your 44-40 brass may well show a light "neck."  44-40 Starline produced now, is not "necked."  New 44-40 is not exactly straight as it does have a slight taper.  Historically ALL new brass needs to be resized.  Starline even provide a disclaimer their new manufactured brass should be resized before use.
Yes, 44-40 has a thin case mouth.  That is the point as it's also very ductile.  You must take some care when running 44-40 thru the 45 expander/powder drop.  Brass, unless contaminated by not being properly cleaned CANNOT gall STEEL.  We are not necessarily talking about RCBS dies.  I haven't used RCBS dies in years.  I run Dillon dies.

There is no truly effective way to eliminate blow-by in new, untreated 45 Colt cases.  Out of the box 45 Colt cases DO NOT obturate to fill a chamber.  The brass is too thick and inflexible.  The only truly effective way to mitigate or eliminate blow-by from a 45 Colt case is to Anneal it.  What a 45 Colt case does in a case gauge before loading and firing is immaterial.  Current production rifles have overly generous chambers that often completely exceed SAMMI specs for a 45 Colt chamber. 

Now, here is the bottom line.  While it may seem Looney to you (and some others), it works.  In fact it works a treat.  Now, just how may loadings a person will get from 44-40 formed to 45, I don't know.  The thin soft mouth of the 44-40 (annealed at starline during the manufacturing process) can and does obturate (expand) to seal 45 chambers.  Actually, the entire case will expand with a little more chamber pressure.  Don't knock it till ya try it  ;D

Offline Roscoe

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Re: 45 Colt brass; blow by; Starline vs Win vs Rem vs ?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 06:43:19 PM »
Hi Roscoe,

Allow me to explain.  First your 44-40 brass may well show a light "neck."  44-40 Starline produced now, is not "necked."  New 44-40 is not exactly straight as it does have a slight taper.  Historically ALL new brass needs to be resized.  Starline even provide a disclaimer their new manufactured brass should be resized before use.
Yes, 44-40 has a thin case mouth.  That is the point as it's also very ductile.  You must take some care when running 44-40 thru the 45 expander/powder drop.  Brass, unless contaminated by not being properly cleaned CANNOT gall STEEL.  We are not necessarily talking about RCBS dies.  I haven't used RCBS dies in years.  I run Dillon dies.

There is no truly effective way to eliminate blow-by in new, untreated 45 Colt cases.  Out of the box 45 Colt cases DO NOT obturate to fill a chamber.  The brass is too thick and inflexible.  The only truly effective way to mitigate or eliminate blow-by from a 45 Colt case is to Anneal it.  What a 45 Colt case does in a case gauge before loading and firing is immaterial.  Current production rifles have overly generous chambers that often completely exceed SAMMI specs for a 45 Colt chamber. 

Now, here is the bottom line.  While it may seem Looney to you (and some others), it works.  In fact it works a treat.  Now, just how may loadings a person will get from 44-40 formed to 45, I don't know.  The thin soft mouth of the 44-40 (annealed at starline during the manufacturing process) can and does obturate (expand) to seal 45 chambers.  Actually, the entire case will expand with a little more chamber pressure.  Don't knock it till ya try it  ;D
You might not want to call it galling, but the cases will stick on the expander enough so the case head will tear out of the shellholder if you try hard enough. I was taught that as "galling". Blame my source.

The die brand is not to be dismissed, because I thought it was relevant.

Actually, forgoing sizing on new brass that passes a gauge is a good idea, because it works and helps with the "galling". Something else not so easily dismissed until tried with poor results.

 

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