Author Topic: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result  (Read 12479 times)

Offline FriscoCounty

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 07:28:22 PM »
Checked all my reloading manuals.  The only loads for .44-40 jacketed were for 200 gr .426 diameter bullets.  Found them in a copy of the Lyman Reloading Handbook and an old Hodgdon reloading manual.  Winchester's and Remington's  jacketed bullets for .44-40 are 0.426. SAAMI specs bullet diameter at 0.424-0.427.

My advice would be to have your gunsmith slug the barrel for you, after he removes the remains of the case.  I'll bet your rifle slugs out tight. 

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Offline Bunk

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2018, 03:10:47 PM »

I may have been a bit harsh in my previous post, but common sense should tell anyone if it is not a load listed in a loading manual or at the powder company data site there just might be a reason.

Perhaps it is because a particular combination was tried and found to be not a workable load for whatever reason.

Personally, I really don’t case if you want to blow up a gun and plant the top strap in the middle of your forehead because that is your prerogative. There is always the chance I can make a good deal on remaining guns or loading equipment from your next of kin.

However, I do object strenuously about the possibility of being next to you and suffering collateral damage because you are stupid and not following loading instructions can only be described as just plain stupid.
 
To paraphrase Ron White
“You can educate ignorance, but you can’t fix stupid.”

Excuse me I am a bit frustrated it was 19 degrees last night here in my part of central Texas, my water pipes are frozen, and my usual jovial sense of humor is not working well.
Bunk Stagner (the original)

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2018, 04:52:24 PM »
Since you have already buggered the gun and based on the “you can’t fall off the floor” principle you might try driving a soft lead plug down the muzzle to the chamber mouth. Then fill the chamber with chamber casting material (a low temperature melting point alloy) and try then driving the whole thing out. Hopefully the alloy will catch the fragment and pull it out.
It can’t hurt and the worst case scenario is you get a good profile of the problem.
Good luck and you have gained experience which is the thing you get right after you needed it.
Regards
Bunk


Bunk
Why go to all  that trouble ? try this idea - so easy !!
-- get a piece of 1/8th brass brazing rod - bend the end a little and grind or cut it to a point like a small chisel end - drive the chisel end in between the chamber wall and the broken case wall - go full length of the case - or until it bulges inwards enough to slip out
This is an easy safe way to get out a broken case and will shift even the toughest one - will not hurt the gun

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #23 on: Today at 08:56:37 PM »

Offline Bunk

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2018, 08:44:06 PM »
Hi Greyhawk
That should work as long as you have access to the breach end of the gun. Yeppers that should work "a treat" as gun plumber we know would say.
Bunk

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2018, 02:00:18 PM »
I've never sectioned a 44-40 case before, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.  But I would expect that modern cases thicken plenty towards the head, which was where Doug said his case separated.  I don't know how much they thicken, but I would expect them to be about equal to a .44 Special in thickness near the head.  Much is made of the thin 44-40 case walls, but doesn't that really just apply to the neck and possibly the shoulder only?  To get a good seal, that's all you need, really.  The reason I ask is that this has bugged me all night (I worked night shift last night).  

If I'd been in Doug's shoes and was willing to stray from published loads, my reasoning would have gone thusly:

1.  I can't find any data for .44-40 and a 240 gr JHP, but here's a mild .44 Special load that calls for 6.0 gr. Unique under that bullet.
2.  Listed pressures for this load in .44 Special are lower than max .44-40 pressures.
3.  C.O.L. for this load in .44 Special is shorter than the maximum C.O.L. on the .44-40, and the .44-40 case is wider as well.
4.  The wider .44-40 case combined with a longer C.O.L. with this load will yield even lower pressure with the .44-40 than with a .44
     Special, because my case volume will be greater.
5.  There is no metallurgical differences between .44 Special Uberti and a .44-40 Uberti.

And I would have forged ahead with what I thought was a good idea at the time.  

I'm very sorry that happened to you, Doug.  How's the broken shell extraction coming?




You pretty much guessed it OD3.  Thanks for your understanding and your kind words here and in the previous post.   In addition to that, my .44-40 rifle is brand new and a .429 bore (same as .44 spl) not the traditional .427.  Also is the fact that there are no current manuels that i have that list 200 gr bullets for .38 or .357 magnum, but it can be done.  

I’m not offended by Coffinmaker or anybody else’s reply.  I was pretty hard on myself.  As said this will not be attempted again as obviously something went wrong.  I am VERY careful at reliading.  It took me aLmost a year of reading and discussing after i got my RCBS before I loaded my first round.   I’ve been reloading for about 6 years now.  Stil learning new things.

As for the gun, i had to get to work and was getting frustrated trying to get it apart and back together as well as get tge chamber clear of that shell fragment.  So i left it with the gunsmith at the sporting goods store to get out.   He has more resources than i do at home

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2018, 07:39:18 PM »
<snip> Also is the fact that there are no current manuels that i have that list 200 gr bullets for .38 or .357 magnum, but it can be done.  
<snip>

WTH...that'll be your next episode.

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2018, 08:05:58 PM »
WTH...that'll be your next episode.

Haha!  No not planning on it.  But there are 200 grain bullets available in .357 and there are even factory rounds in .38 spl or .357 magnum

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2018, 03:19:00 AM »
Its always a possibility that Doug just got unlucky with a defective case
but like CM said ... it had help

240 grain copper jacket in a '73 .........why? - its not a strong action - the thing was designed for a 200grain lead boolit and blackpowder 
6 grains of unique dont seem like much but heres a tip fellers .....fast burning powder under a heavy boolit - things can get outa hand really quick.     really really really quick!

200grain boolit in a 357mag ........forget it! LEE makes a picture perfect 158grain flatnose mold - is as close to ideal alround lead boolit as you can get fer a 357 mag rifle. 

Offline Good Troy

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2018, 07:42:52 AM »
.....fast burning powder under a heavy boolit - things can get outa hand really quick.     really really really quick!

I've been studying my Speer reloading manual on 45 Colt and 44 mag JHP loads for reasons not related to this thread (trying to "rationalize" a planned purchase!).  To your point...I've noticed that while data for Unique is listed for lighter, and typical bullet weights for caliber, it isn't listed for the heavier bullets.
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2018, 08:56:19 AM »
Its always a possibility that Doug just got unlucky with a defective case
but like CM said ... it had help

240 grain copper jacket in a '73 .........why? - its not a strong action - the thing was designed for a 200grain lead boolit and blackpowder 
6 grains of unique dont seem like much but heres a tip fellers .....fast burning powder under a heavy boolit - things can get outa hand really quick.     really really really quick!

200grain boolit in a 357mag ........forget it! LEE makes a picture perfect 158grain flatnose mold - is as close to ideal alround lead boolit as you can get fer a 357 mag rifle. 

I wasn't trying to make a magnum rifle out of my 1873.  I know it is what it is, it's not a 92 action and shouldn't be expected to hold up under hot loads.  I just wanted to propel a heavier jacketed expanding HP bullet out of it at low to moderate velocities less than what lighter bullets like the 200 gr hardcast lead generate.  (like 700-800 fps.).   200 gr .427 gr hardcast bullets get about  1100-1200 ft per second out of my rifle's 20 inch barrel and that's as far as I've taken it (using up to 8.2 gr of unique).   

Offline russ1943

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 10:29:14 PM »
If you want JHP round in the 44-40 rifle use speer .429 200g JHP bullet with 7.8 to 8.0g Unique used in Uberti 1866 carbine for dear hunting, was .427 bore early model 1971, which is close to 200g SP Factory ammo. Killed dear good, but found SP factory did just as well

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2018, 08:34:27 AM »
If you want JHP round in the 44-40 rifle use speer .429 200g JHP bullet with 7.8 to 8.0g Unique used in Uberti 1866 carbine for dear hunting, was .427 bore early model 1971, which is close to 200g SP Factory ammo. Killed dear good, but found SP factory did just as well

That again is a mismatch, shooting a 44 Special bullet in a 44-40, .002 oversize...more serious because it is jacketed.

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2018, 02:51:46 PM »
That again is a mismatch, shooting a 44 Special bullet in a 44-40, .002 oversize...more serious because it is jacketed.

Except thar modern made Uberti bores are .429 now

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2018, 03:28:43 PM »
Except thar modern made Uberti bores are .429 now
Statement was specific to what was quoted "was .427 bore early model 1971,".

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2018, 07:52:47 PM »
Statement was specific to what was quoted "was .427 bore early model 1971,".

Oh okay.  Gotcha.  I agree then

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2018, 11:29:43 AM »
  There IS published data for a 240 gr. bullet in a 44-40, I found it at www.loaddata.com listed under Lee data. Yes, it is for a 240 gr. lead bullet, but their starting load is 6.1 gr. of Unique, so Doug load was nowhere near excessive. Doug I think you were reasonably prudent using .44 Special data as it is a cartridge case of lesser capacity. Everyone jumped to the conclusion that the case separated due to pressure issues, but if you understand basic internal ballistics,  that's not likely. Had he loaded 7 or 8 grs., maybe, but not with the load he used.

   Doug I had the same thing happen with a .303 British (using light cast bullet loads, FWIW). I removed the seperated portion of the case by running a tight batch down the bore, stopping it just ahead of the mouth of the case. I then melted some Cerrosafe and poured it in from the chamber end. The Cerrosafe filled the voids around the separated case and allowed me to tap the patch, Cerrosafe and case out, all in one piece. Pretty easy, actually.

 Hope this helps.

  CHT

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2018, 01:23:27 AM »
  There IS published data for a 240 gr. bullet in a 44-40, I found it at www.loaddata.com listed under Lee data. Yes, it is for a 240 gr. lead bullet, but their starting load is 6.1 gr. of Unique, so Doug load was nowhere near excessive. Doug I think you were reasonably prudent using .44 Special data as it is a cartridge case of lesser capacity. Everyone jumped to the conclusion that the case separated due to pressure issues, but if you understand basic internal ballistics,  that's not likely. Had he loaded 7 or 8 grs., maybe, but not with the load he used.

   Doug I had the same thing happen with a .303 British (using light cast bullet loads, FWIW). I removed the seperated portion of the case by running a tight batch down the bore, stopping it just ahead of the mouth of the case. I then melted some Cerrosafe and poured it in from the chamber end. The Cerrosafe filled the voids around the separated case and allowed me to tap the patch, Cerrosafe and case out, all in one piece. Pretty easy, actually.

 Hope this helps.


Brass chisel - have the dang thing out while u r fiddlin round with the patch mate !

  CHT

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2018, 04:46:06 PM »
Wow.  I just talked to my gunsmith.  He didn’t have any extractor short enough so he had to send it to Stoeger to get it out.  Said it shouldn’t be much if anything to do it.  Should be back monday or tuesday.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2018, 08:39:02 PM »
Wow.  I just talked to my gunsmith.  He didn’t have any extractor short enough so he had to send it to Stoeger to get it out.  Said it shouldn’t be much if anything to do it.  Should be back monday or tuesday.


Wow.............................
dont need a gunsmith - this is  five minute job
see pic  below

Brass 1/8th welding rod chisel - tap it between chamber wall and stuck case wall till the case crumples inward (yes it will !!!) - see the groove in the cutoff 44/40 case in the pic - the case will proly fall out when its done - if not a brass brush from the muzzle end easy .   I guess this is just too bloody simple for anybody to take it seriously ?????? 

Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Reloaded .44-40 with jhp 240 gr with bad result
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2018, 05:16:28 PM »

Wow.............................
dont need a gunsmith - this is  five minute job
see pic  below

Brass 1/8th welding rod chisel - tap it between chamber wall and stuck case wall till the case crumples inward (yes it will !!!) - see the groove in the cutoff 44/40 case in the pic - the case will proly fall out when its done - if not a brass brush from the muzzle end easy .   I guess this is just too bloody simple for anybody to take it seriously ?????? 
Thank you.  I tried everything I knew to do.  Including something similar (but it wasn't brass).  I was afraid if I kept poking around in that chamber with stuff I'd end up scratching up the gun and I sure didn't want to do that. 

Anyway, it still bothers me that this happened at all.  I'm still wondering what exactly I did wrong to cause this.  The powder weight in the load was on the low end.  It is possible to shoot a.429 240 gr  JHP bullet through a .429 bore even if it is at a slow velocity.   The only thing I can think is that the cartridge was worn out after times being used.   One thing is clear:  It wasn't the gun that failed, it was the cartridge that failed.   But people have shot much hotter loads than that in .44-40 out of 1892 actions. 

I'm not going to try this again because I don't know what went wrong.   For now, just stick to lead 200 gr hardcast bullets.  Should be adequate for what the gun is and anything I'll be shooting at paper or flesh

 

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