Author Topic: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?  (Read 4837 times)

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« on: December 01, 2017, 09:31:38 AM »
Hi Mike,

Read your article in this months "Guns Of The Old West"....found the issue on paper cartridges intriguinging and ordered up a mold from Eras Gone Bullets and John Gurnee's book "How To Make Cap And Ball Revolver Cartridges and Packets". 

Turned a wrapping mandrel out of aluminum and made a bunch of cartridges. These turned out great!

When I went to load them in my revolvers there were issues.

The bullets drop from the mold at .463 to .465”

The chambers on two Piatta 44cal C&B revolvers are .442-.444

Near impossible to seat a bullet with this tight a chamber. Had to use my bench vice to get the bullet seated and it shaved off quite a bit of lead.

I have a Uberti Walker and a Dragoon and those chambers are .449 - .450

I have a cylinder reamer for the 45 Colt and I reamed the Piatta cylinders to .450. Still quite hard to load as these revolver have a 5" barrel and the loading lever is very short and not a lot of leverage. A 12"  piece of metal tubing slipped over the ram lever helped.

Am I doing something wrong?

Has anyone else run into this issue?

Thanks
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline 45 Dragoon

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 465
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 123
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 05:10:55 PM »
Bullets need to be pure lead or close to it.

Mike (not that one)
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 06:34:59 PM »
I'm using 20-1 lead which isn'y too hard.

I loaded a few rounds and went to the range. They all went BANG and accuracy was outstanding!

There was a relative large amount of paper left in the chamber. I did not use nitrate paper and just used the paper I got from Buffalo Arms for paper-patching bullets. It might be too heavy.

Going to try it with cigarette paper.

Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Advertising

  • Guest
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 06:19:29 PM »

Offline 45 Dragoon

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 465
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 123
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 06:49:52 PM »
Probably get better results with hair curling papers. And, they're cheap!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 07:04:29 PM »
I'll experiment with both....Thanks
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 08:01:35 PM »
Lemmie See Here.

You have a projectile "as cast" at .463 - .465

You were trying to stuff that projectile into a 442 - 444 hole (chamber).   Ah ... Think about that for a minute.

Now you are still trying to stuff a .463 projectile into a 450 hole (chamber).  Re:  Above.

Expecting to swage or shave this projectile down some are we??  Then shoot it through a .451 - 452 bore???

Getting some resistance at the rammer arm??  Surprised are we???

Not to be flip (yes I am) but ever think the chamber might see that projectile as an OBSTRUCTION??  If you had to use a BENCH VICE to seat the projectile ...... IT IS AN OBSTRUCTION!!  Cummon RB, yer smarter than that!!!  12 inch CHEATER BAR????  Your not turning lug nuts here.  That particular projectile may not be intended for pistol use.  And ... How are you measuring your chamber dimension??

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 08:09:48 PM »
At this point I have a .450 bullet firing through a .. Pietta 44 cal bore of unknown dimension.

In my Kirst 1860 conversions, I’m firing a .452 bullet through these same Barrels Over 10,000 rounds and I can still count to 10.

Tonight I ordered a .452 and a .454 chucking readers.

I’ll slug the bore to see where I am in that regard.




Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline pony express

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3629
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 10:51:08 PM »
Maybe instead of reaming the chambers, run the bullets through a .452 or .454 sizing die?

Offline 45 Dragoon

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 465
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 123
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 11:17:41 PM »
Just saw the new GOTOW at the grocery store and sure enough,  hair curling papers. I don't load P.C.s (just the pretty brass ones!!) but know some folks that do and they all sware by the curling papers. That should take care of residual paper in the chambers.  Anyway, C.M. makes a good point (vage as it may be   ;D )  about the size difference of the bullet you are attempting to load in a much smaller chamber. Anyhow, I'm sure you'll figure that one out.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @goonsgunworks

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 01:34:37 AM »
Using. A sizing die is s good idea. Think I might try this.
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3081
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1118
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2017, 04:14:31 AM »
My Dear Roy -
whatever mold do you have that is dropping a conical at .463 - .465 ?

I am using the Lee MOLD D C 450-200-1R , drops a .450-.451 and it has a slightly rebated base.
works great in remingtons and colts,  whether loose or with cigaret paper cartridges.

yhs
prof amrvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of


Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic


Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2017, 05:18:59 AM »
This is the special production mold that was featured in Mike Beliveau’s article on Guns Of The Old West. This mold is designed to duplicate the paper cartridge bullets of the Civil War.
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline wildman1

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2083
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 169
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 05:19:51 AM »
C&B projectiles should be cast from PURE lead NOT 20-1 alloy or even 40-1 alloy.
wM1
WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3081
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1118
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2017, 05:23:25 PM »
Greetings Ray -

BTW, Mike B. is "Bottom Dealin Mike" here, but he hasn't been online since April 04, 2017, 12:02:09 am

I see the mold you are using is from
http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/johnston_and_dow__44_caliber.html



" The photo above shows an original Johnston & Dow .44 caliber bullet side by side with a new one cast from an Eras Gone bullet mold.  This original bullet was recovered from a cavalry camp near Lonoke Arkansas about 35 years ago.  Measurements taken from this bullet were used to design the Eras Gone Johnston & Dow bullet mold.


    The Eras Gone Johnston & Dow bullet weighs 217 grains, the band is .460 in diameter and the ogive just above the groove is .451.  The long heel is .428 and will fit easily into the chamber even if wrapped in cartridge paper for those who prefer to prepare combustable cartridges.  These bullets should be cast with pure, soft lead just as the originals were."

and per Mike's article,
"today's reproduction revovlers are not made to the same dimensions as the original 19th century revolvers."


so - to make this work, you will have to
- modify the revolvers chambers, "loading area", and "bullet seating ram" ( per mike's article)
- use pure lead as per the mold maker
- use the thinnest papers possible
- probably size the bullet down to fit your chamber mouths

to assist further, I would like to direct you to several threads covering paper cartridges on the CAS City forums:

pay special attention to the posts by SGT John Chapman - especially this one - One of the iconic and most referenced threads is the one by Sgt John Chapman wherein he details not only the manufacture and use of said paper cartridges (specifically for the Colt 1860) but in addition he makes hysterically correct "pullstring" catridges boxes!

You will also find threads addressing the manufacture of paper cartridges for the Rifled Musket and the Sharps Percussion breachloader.

ahhhh in fact (I had to go look) this is covered under the "Dark Arts"  "Child Board" here as a permanent sticky.
(of course, permanent is in the eyes of the beholder .... )

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9695.0.html
 
and these
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,57072.0.html

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,37269.25.html


hope this helps

prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of


Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic


Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 07:37:20 PM »
Prof, thank you very much for the advice on how to move forward with this project. I’ll review what you posted...  onward and forward
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 06:04:12 AM »
Ok....here’s where I ended up.....

Chambers reamed to .450........ bullets sized to .452

Now they fit easily but tight enough to not move under recoil.

Looks like I’m good to go....

Thanks everyone for the advise
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3081
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1118
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 01:56:13 AM »
My Good Roy -
Sounds like you are on a winning streak for replicating the original  conical loads.
According to The Ancient Sage Elmer Kieth , those pointy conicals had extreme penetration, which did not do
so well against 2 legged combatants but worked rather well against bears and such.

Please post your results and any photos! I am looking forward to following your efforts.

yhs
prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of


Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic


Offline Tuolumne Lawman

  • CAS-L Ghost Rider
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Grass Valley, CA in the Sierra Nevada Mountains
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 46
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2017, 07:58:34 PM »
I think I heard somewhere that BDM had so health issues.  I used to have his email, but can't find it.  Anyone else have it and can check with him?
TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators

Offline rbertalotto

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1202
    • RVB Precision
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2017, 06:46:17 PM »
I really got my pistol shooting great. Reaming the cylinders and sizing the bullets works. But the best advice was using rolling papers. Rolling papers a cardboard wad in a greased cookie in the gun just runs and runs. Looks like I’m good to go for some paper cartridge shooting.
Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544

Offline Professor Marvel

  • purveyor of useless items to the gentry
  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3081
  • learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1118
Re: Paging Mike Beliveau...Conical Bullets?
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2017, 09:31:29 PM »
Great news Roy!

I have tried newsprint, cigaret papers, typewriter paper, xerox copy paper, and the ancient "green bar printer paper".
I tried them "as is" and nitrated. My best results were with nitrated newsprint, a compromise between the too-thin
cigaret papers and "everything else" which was too thick. 

So I better get myself down to the beauty shoppe and pick up some of those rolling papers to try.

yhs
prof marvel
Your Humble Servant
~~~~~Professor Algernon Horatio Ubiquitous Marvel The First~~~~~~
President, CEO, Chairman,  and Chief Bottle Washer of


Professor Marvel's
Traveling Apothecary
and
Fortune Telling Emporium


Acclaimed By The Crowned Heads of Europe
Purveyor of Patent Remedies, Snake Oil, Powder, Percussion Caps, Cleaning Supplies, Dry Goods,
and
Picture Postcards

Offering Unwanted Advice for All Occasions
and
Providing Useless Items to the Gentry
Since 1822
[
Available by Appointment for Lectures on Any Topic


 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2023 CAScity.com