Pyrodex loading data

[Doug.38PR]

I just started with Pyrodex about a month ago.  Learned that it stinks, its harder to clean but will do what you need it to do.

When loading, as with any black powder sub, i eyeball it by volume as opposed to loading by powder weight like smokeless

I typicall load just under the top rim of the .44-40 or 45 Colt case and drive the 200 or 250 grain bullet in witha good crimp to compact the powder a little.   I typically put, more ir less, an average of 25 grains of powder in each case.

In .45 Colt, its a pretty stout load with a lot of noise and recoil in my 4.75 inch New Model Vaquero.  Louder and more recoil than 7.5 grains of Unique smokeless

https://americanhandgunner.com/pyrodex-p-powder/

This article however recommends 37.5 grains of powder. (WHAT) and 30 on the low end.  From my results (and i have not clocked it yet), that seems a little high.   But then maybe 12 grains of pyrodex isnt that much more in volume

[Coffinmaker]

Doug,

First a little CAVEAT:  I don't and won't shoot Pyrodex.  It's a rusting agent.  Another CAVEAT:  There are a lot of people out there who write for magazines.  The magazine does NOT check their information.  Some of those self stated WunderKind don't know half what they think they do and want you to think they do.  Take anything they write with a grain of Salt.  Maybe 10 grains of Salt.

First step.  Try pouring 37.5Gr of your stuff into a 45 Colt case.  If it runs over the top and onto your bench, re-think that.  For "normal" compression, think:  load to the base of the bullet + 1/16 or 1/8th inch and crimp in the crimp groove.  If you wish a lighter load, the same load level applies, you will have to "make up" the load level with some form of filler.  Cream-0-Wheat is nice.

The ONLY load information I trust .... MINE!!  Worked up and tested by ... ME

[Professor Marvel]

Greetingsmy Good Doug and My Dear Coffin

Happy Thanksgiving!
get off the computer and go eat something!

then , doug, get some of the Lee measure scoop thingies. You want to measure BP & Subs by volume. Why?
Because. And Tradition. and, well, tradition. and because it's what they did when they did that back when that was what they did.

now, my specialty - rambling on and on and on ....

The Case Capacity of one flavor of .45 Colt brass is     41.60 gr H2O or 2.696 cm3

over a lustrum and a half ago, our interweb compadres Driftwood Johnson and John Boy were discussing this at length, and  posted the below ( elsewhere) , and it is so detailed and eloquent I will repost Driftwood,s details on the matter!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283
Posted December 25, 2010

My point was, how can one generalize the weight of powder that will fit into a case by measuring how much water it will hold, when different brands of powder clearly weigh different amounts?

I have several references in my loading notebook that I have kept over the years as I have used different brands of powders. For instance, my favorite load for both 45 Colt and 44-40 is 2.2CC of powder. When I actually weighed these volumes, I got the following weights:

2.2CC of Elephant FFg weighed 37.5 grains.
2.2CC of Goex FFg weighed 34.5 grains.
2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg weighed 33.5 grains.

Those are actual measurements that I took and recorded.

Likewise this morning I filled a 45 Colt case with Goex FFFg and weighed it. It came to 40.4 grains on average.

I know that I am splitting hairs, and perhaps I should stop doing so, but referring to a table someplace that says that a 45 Colt case will hold 42 grains of powder based on the volume of water completely misses the point that not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. You cannot generalize how much a specific charge of powder weighs by comparing it to a volume of water.

Enough already.......I will attempt to stop harping on this in the future.

I think I just heard sleigh bells and I need to put out a glass of milk and some cookies.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also bear in mind that actual weight of BP may vary according to relative humidity and time spent out of the container in that humidity....

soooo ....

If you want to shoot Pyro, and I do on occasion, basing the charge on the advised volume of BP, reducing the charge volume by 10% is often advised. otherwise, just fill up to near the bullet base, seat, crimp, shoot, and clean thoroughly or the perchlorate salt fairies will eat your brass and iron.

Or do what Coffin does and shoot APP ( I have 6 bottles and STILL haven;t tred it yet  . boo. hoo. )

yhs
prof marvel

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[greyhawk]

Responsing to Professor and Coffinmaker
one question first - who was it came up with the idea of measuring blackpowder in grains of volume ?
Thats crazy - it dont take very long with some powder samples and a set of scales to figure out that a volume measure will give you a range of weights in grains --- and after that - go shoot and you soon find out that different powders give a range of velocities for the same volume OR weight measure -- shoot some more and you figure out that some powders seem to like compression more or less than others .......none of which matters much for hitting a two foot square plate at five paces - but all of which are worth paying attention to ifn you shoot bullseye OR ifn you shoot for your dinner on occasion!

I would suggest that the measure system was in place mainly because great uncle harry didnt own a set of scales - his drinkin buddy Mortimus, being a town guy and more scientific probably got the local apothecary shop to weigh a couple of his measure charges (after he worked up his load) so they could figure roughly how many shots he got from a can of powder - once that was done he could relay the info to Harry and they were all set with the latest plan-----I shoot 42 grains of Dupont FFF in my 38 squirrel rifle - man it flattens em .....

I have more interest than some in this - have been making a little of my own powder - the major problem being I just can not get the density of bought powder into mine - that bugged me - no problem in a frontender - but seemed to be in cartridges --- so a volume measure --- is maybe 20% less grains weight  ...............what to do??? luckily - (the cavalary to the rescue) - this stuff compressed way more (and easily) than commercial  - so by a circuitous route we end up back at the same place - or close and in the process loading got really really really really simple, just line em up, charge full with me powder horn - insert projectile. That gets me right around 36.5 grains WEIGHT in a 44/40 - it gets me about 80 to 100fps over factory original FPS, with nice acceptable shot to shot variation .......so for me ....we measure volume with a volume standard measure usually cubic somethings - Mr LEE has this figured but I cut my own measures from old shell cases - we measure grains weight with a scale of some sort that will tell us grains weight ........and when we say to Joe Blow down the way this measure is sixty grains or whatever - we are disseminating false and misleading information UNLESS we qualify it by adding the powder brand and grade we used - and how we filled the measure - tap it twice - or ten times - or not at all
So if you ask me a load and I tell ya so many grains - ya can put that on the scale and its right -----volumetric grains is using BS lingo       

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings my Good Greyhawk

Thanks for your contributions! Your missives are always fun and I look forward to them!


The volume vs weight ( or is it mass? ) fight debacle argument debate is a long and glorious thing, even more heated than the Fjord vs Chebby debate .... 

Regarding your own powder, have you made it using a press to make a compressed hard puck and then regrinding?
I have been following the efforts of several successful makers, but have not taken the plunge myself...

YHS
Prof marvel

[greyhawk]

Greetings my Good Greyhawk

Thanks for your contributions! Your missives are always fun and I look forward to them!


The volume vs weight ( or is it mass? ) fight debacle argument debate is a long and glorious thing, even more heated than the Fjord vs Chebby debate .... 

Regarding your own powder, have you made it using a press to make a compressed hard puck and then regrinding?
I have been following the efforts of several successful makers, but have not taken the plunge myself...

YHS
Yeah doin the press bit (reluctantly) lotsa extra work ! lotsa extra work!!!!made a press frame and use a twenty ton hydraulic jack - lean on that pretty good - bustin up pucks and regrinding with a coffee mill - screening - its slow !!.... makin the pucks is not so bad and they dry well here - have not gained much density wise ? a little but not that much - think its better powder tho - have not done a chrono comparison yet - but every step ahead so far has gained a bit of velocity and consistency - I think willow charcoal maybe a bit of the density difference - it shoots nice tho - cleanest black powder I have shot - it leaves a thin brownish residue - and the boys that have watched me shoot comment the smoke is more browish too. If I was doin this for CAS I would not make pucks, those guys burn a lot more ammo than me, and the muzzleloader powder is quite ok - thats corning ? damp mix and pushed through a piece of window gauze to get the grains - I got that process down pat ...... the clean burn is what really got my attention on this - I havent shot swiss but this is streets ahead of anything else I have shot - cheap too (if ya dont count time ) materials cost about 2.35 per kilo -- if I drive 60 mile to a shop Wano is $85 - drive 100 mile tother direction Wano is $65 n Swiss about $100 - have not spent hardly any dollars on anything just used stuff I had layin around the place, remnants of farm projects and such............................ dont even think about doin this without a ball mill!!!!
Prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

Ah Greyhawk ...... Um .... Making yer own powder ...... Well ..

Gentelmen (using the term loosely),  I .. Um .. NO!!  Any time I think about, or read about, or contemplate, making Black Powder, I remember the News Feed on the Boob Tube when a Fireworks plant had a minor "OOPS" if you will .. and completely disappeared from the face of the Earth.  Wiped clean as it twer.  Weren't any pieces big enough to even tell what it had been.  Some real impressive craters too.  Therefore ..... I'll pass.  I do desire to keep my tender pink body whole.  Also, the only "Puck" I am familiar with is used in a weird game whereby they (the players) have learned to keep score in a fight over said puck, which they try beating into powder with great long sticks also used for beating each other to powder.  Think how much more entertaining it would be if "Their" puck were also explosive!! HOWEVER:

I do find the debate over the proper measurement of BP for a "load" to be fun to follow.  Personally, I've found trying to quantify a load by weight with a beam scale or other precision instrument to be an exercise in comedy.  Way too many variables.  I mean, if you don't hold yer tongue just right, consistent goes straight out the window. 

I personally load with very high tech equipment.  Seeking consistency.  After determining an amount of a given propellant (APP) that performed to my desire (BANG followed by KLANG) I then cut down a surplus Nickel Plated 45 ACP cartridge case and attached a handle.  Instant scoop for "my" preferred load.  Very precise.  Same load every time (mostly).  Then I made a "depth stop" for my cylinder loader that seated the projectile (Ball) to exactly the top of this load every time.  Then, just so I could show some modicum of scientific precision, I weighed "my" "Load" on my Beam Scale.  PRESTO!!  An amount translated to weight.  Except, the next day it didn't weight quite the same.  I thought to myself "Self" (call me that a lot) What gives??  Then thought to myself "self" (same self) Why do I care??  Same amount, same result (BANG/KLANG) then completely ignored the weight thing.  So ..... how much is "my" preferred "load??"  I don't have a clue.  It's the amount that fits in my precision Scoop and makes my guns go BANG!!

"Why??" you might ask do I not care precisely how much it is??  Because it doesn't matter at all.  With my propellant of choice there is no possibility of loading enough stuff to damage the gun so it simply doesn't matter.  If I want repeatability (I do) I just remember to use the same precision scoop.  Change the load??  Make a new scoop.  Simple.  Easy.  I do however, need another length of brass rod for making the handles.

My Good Professor Marvel .....

You really must get around to trying some of that carefully hoarded APP.  It's fun "stuff"   Easy to clean up.  Doesn't immediately rust steel nor dissolve brass.  Does make lots of lovely smoke.  Now, if we just stabilize Nitroglycerine ...........................

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Loading real Gun Powder is slightly different that loading nitro powders.
 With nitro powders get a loading manual and follow it like your life depended on it (because it does).

My system was a developed for a cap&ball gun but it should work with a frontier  cartridge gun load also.
First, I started with as much FFFg powder the chamber/case would hold to the point that in a cartridge gun the bullet can be seated to SLGHTLY compress the powder so the OAL will allow the cylinder to turn or in a C&B gun the ball is just below the cylinder face.  Load a couple and try them. This is the ZOWIE!! Load.

 Then continue loading two or three rounds at a time and continually decrease the load in small equal increments until you get the “watch the ball go down range” load.

Somewhere between ZOWIE and the ‘WTBGDR” load you will find the sweet spot that is fun, accurate, and klangy enough to soothe your soul.

The unfortunate part of this system is it requires a lot of shooting but usually a friend can be found that will be glad to help. If not then Cowboy Up and do it yourself.

At least that is what worked for me and now my guns run and work.

And remember that Roger Bacon in the 1200’s wrote

”When the flame of powder toucheth the soul of man it burns exceeding deep”
.
How scorched is your soul?

Yr’ Obt’ Svt’
Bunk

[greyhawk]

Ah Greyhawk ...... Um .... Making yer own powder ...... Well ..

Gentelmen (using the term loosely),  I .. Um .. NO!!  Any time I think about, or read about, or contemplate, making Black Powder, I remember the News Feed on the Boob Tube when a Fireworks plant had a minor "OOPS" if you will .. and completely disappeared from the face of the Earth.  Wiped clean as it twer.  Weren't any pieces big enough to even tell what it had been.  Some real impressive craters too.  Therefore ..... I'll pass.  I do desire to keep my tender pink body whole.  Also, the only "Puck" I am familiar with is used in a weird game whereby they (the players) have learned to keep score in a fight over said puck, which they try beating into powder with great long sticks also used for beating each other to powder.  Think how much more entertaining it would be if "Their" puck were also explosive!! HOWEVER:

No sense of adventure have ya!
getting serious for a bit - no not something you can do in the 'burbs -- the ball mill running all night gonna annoy the folk next door somethin fierce - I hung out on a pyro forum for a bit - those guys worry me - half em are kids - they got way toooooo much sense of adventure - and a fourteen year old makin really active stuff in moms basement - no !

as far as the kaboom thing goes - think about this fer a bit - its all about quantity (and level of carelessness) - my argyment is handling black powder is potentially dangerous yes - how seriously so is all about quantity - me makin it in one kilo lots is no more or less dangerous than you opening a same size container of it to fill yr little measure if I do it in the middle of nowhere on my square mile patch and out in the open to boot and you do it in yr basement in town - then I vote you as more of a menace to society (and yrself) than me ......really a can of gasoline fr the lawn mower is at least as dangerous if not more.

I do find the debate over the proper measurement of BP for a "load" to be fun to follow.  Personally, I've found trying to quantify a load by weight with a beam scale or other precision instrument to be an exercise in comedy.  Way too many variables.  I mean, if you don't hold yer tongue just right, consistent goes straight out the window. 

That must just be your contrary nature - my scales work fine - dont set em up where the wind can get em - and ya cant do this on Grandmas' kitchen scales - but powder scales work ok - if they didnt we wouldnt have any o them smokeyless shooters left - theyd be all blowed away.

I personally load with very high tech equipment.  Seeking consistency.  After determining an amount of a given propellant (APP) that performed to my desire (BANG followed by KLANG) I then cut down a surplus Nickel Plated 45 ACP cartridge case and attached a handle.  Instant scoop for "my" preferred load.  Very precise.  Same load every time (mostly).  Then I made a "depth stop" for my cylinder loader that seated the projectile (Ball) to exactly the top of this load every time.  Then, just so I could show some modicum of scientific precision, I weighed "my" "Load" on my Beam Scale.  PRESTO!!  An amount translated to weight.  Except, the next day it didn't weight quite the same.  I thought to myself "Self" (call me that a lot) What gives??  Then thought to myself "self" (same self) Why do I care??  Same amount, same result (BANG/KLANG) then completely ignored the weight thing.  So ..... how much is "my" preferred "load??"  I don't have a clue.  It's the amount that fits in my precision Scoop and makes my guns go BANG!!
Precisely me point (seein we are usin big important words like precise!) I always found it kind of ridickerlous that guys would measure powder in a scoop then say that is x amount of grains (weight) based many times on a mark some guy that dont even speak english scratched on the side of said scoop before it left the factory (lots of fellers not as inventive as you - they give their old brass to the scrap man then pay fer a shiney new measure!)


"Why??" you might ask do I not care precisely how much it is??  Because it doesn't matter at all.  With my propellant of choice there is no possibility of loading enough stuff to damage the gun so it simply doesn't matter.  If I want repeatability (I do) I just remember to use the same precision scoop.  Change the load??  Make a new scoop.  Simple.  Easy.  I do however, need another length of brass rod for making the handles.

That works fer me too - I only get pernickity with long range loads for the sharps - still shooting GOEX in that - needs some serious testing to make the changeover (later that will happen) ...Sneaky thing about the homebrew - because of that aforesaid "problem" with density I can fill a case to the top, compress it down (made a die for a little turret press for that) insert lead and crimp - dont even use a scoop -- can do the same with the sixshooter too - fill chambers - press down with load lever - insert ball and ram - grease someplace of course - good to go - if its a bit much of a load we just switch to FF - makes more noise n smoke n flames out the front - a bit less fuss at the back end - all is good !  

My Good Professor Marvel .....

You really must get around to trying some of that carefully hoarded APP.  It's fun "stuff"   Easy to clean up.  Doesn't immediately rust steel nor dissolve brass.  Does make lots of lovely smoke.  Now, if we just stabilize Nitroglycerine ...........................

[Coffinmaker]

There are those whom have not the slightest idea of just how much fun it is to commune with a bunch of Loons whom are just as Looney as I am.  this thread is just too much FUN!!

Does anyone remember what sort of answer the OP as looking for before we drifted this thread to San Diego??  Me neither.  However, I oft wonder if those Heathens hell bent on loading those Fad Non-Smoking propellants would benefit from some super-glue on their Beam Scales???  Improving the Species??  Darwin exemplified??

Wait!!  I remember (imagine that).  We were originally discussing the applicability of recommendations made by one of the oft quoted scribes for a Gun Rag.  Horse Puckey.  One should work up one's own load.  I find it some annoying when those who scribble for a handout find it necessary to recommend loads duplicating Mil Spec. 

[Doug.38PR]

Doug,

First a little CAVEAT:  I don't and won't shoot Pyrodex.  It's a rusting agent.  Another CAVEAT:  There are a lot of people out there who write for magazines.  The magazine does NOT check their information.  Some of those self stated WunderKind don't know half what they think they do and want you to think they do.  Take anything they write with a grain of Salt.  Maybe 10 grains of Salt.

First step.  Try pouring 37.5Gr of your stuff into a 45 Colt case.  If it runs over the top and onto your bench, re-think that.  For "normal" compression, think:  load to the base of the bullet + 1/16 or 1/8th inch and crimp in the crimp groove.  If you wish a lighter load, the same load level applies, you will have to "make up" the load level with some form of filler.  Cream-0-Wheat is nice.

The ONLY load information I trust .... MINE!!  Worked up and tested by ... ME

Yeah.  I tried it last night.  The most i could pour up to the rim was 29.6 grains of pyrodex.

[Trailrider]

I have shot very little BP or substitutes, but did some experiments with BP vs Pyrodex P when the latter first came out (before Dan Pawlek was killed in a manufacturing accident!!!)  The data supplied was to use 0.80 Pyrodex by weight of fffg BP.  In .44-40 Winchester brass with a 213.5 gr. hard cast bullet in a Navy Arms M1860 Henry rifle, produced 1320 ft/sec. I also checked some .45LC loads using Pyrodex P for pressure-time data using an Oehler M43 PBL setup. As I cleaned the guns immediately after each shooting session, I have no data on rusting tendencies.

I shoot neither BP or any substitutes including Pyrodex as I am too danged lazy to clean after each shoot, and get excellent results from smokeless.

[greyhawk]

There are those whom have not the slightest idea of just how much fun it is to commune with a bunch of Loons whom are just as Looney as I am.  this thread is just too much FUN!!

Does anyone remember what sort of answer the OP as looking for before we drifted this thread to San Diego??  Me neither.  However, I oft wonder if those Heathens hell bent on loading those Fad Non-Smoking propellants would benefit from some super-glue on their Beam Scales???  Improving the Species??  Darwin exemplified??

Wait!!  I remember (imagine that).  We were originally discussing the applicability of recommendations made by one of the oft quoted scribes for a Gun Rag.  Horse Puckey.  One should work up one's own load.  I find it some annoying when those who scribble for a handout find it necessary to recommend loads duplicating Mil Spec. 

Coffinmaker
Thanks!
What they also proly dont realise is that in among the looneyness there is some worthwhile information/opinion/observation/ideas passing to and fro ..cant be a bad thing? .... well .....maybe it could if we start takin it all as gospell and quit thinking about how it fits us.
Thread drift ? whats a drifting thread ? I detest straight lines (even that they the shortest track between two points) - city streets are full of em (straight lines and folk with gritted teeth too) - dont see it in nature much - to me a game trail is kind of a thread, it twists thisaway and that, wanders here and there, but it is goin someplace - the critters that use it have picked the easiest / most interesting / rewarding way to go - might take a little longer but they get there. 

[Doug.38PR]

Hodgdon website says triple and pyrodex are same volume and cartridge loads call for 30 gr on both .45 colt and .44-40

I dunno.   All i can pour into a .45 shell to the rim is 29.6
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf

[Coffinmaker]

Yea Doug.  And that'll round yer eyes right out tiffin ya set it off 

[greyhawk]

Yea Doug.  And that'll round yer eyes right out tiffin ya set it off 

I bet THEY MEANT VOLUMETRIC GRAINS --- which mythical dragon critter we just THOUGHT we slayed !!!. --- 30 grains of black will go in either case easy ---- in my 44/40 its pretty much spot on a full uncompressed load == powder flush with base of boolit - no squashing involved .... just because a couple of looneys here have figured this out dont stop some goose at Hogdons from messing it up .
So Doug jest for fun get a marked blackpowder measure and set it neat on 30 then weigh the black charge ?? whatya get ? now fill that measure to 30 wid your store bought rusting agent - fits easy in the case huh ?! weighs maybe 22??
Tell us what ya find??

[Coffinmaker]

No....No....NO!!!   Absolutely NOT Greyhawk.  It absolutely cannot be that simple.  We're talking the equivalent of effecting World Peace here.  The answer to the confusion simply CANNOT be that simple.  I won't stand for it.  We haven't even approached 3 pages of discussion yet.  There's been no name calling, no shoe pounding, no rattling of Sabers.  It's just too simple.  Lets face it, we haven't started the trains to the borders, Naval units aren't even considering getting up steam.

Perfesser Marvel hasn't lifted his Airship to prosecute this conflict with his patented Snake Oil Bombs.  We're ALL SCREWED!!

Oh the horror.  Or Horrors perhaps.  Oh the humanity (Stolen famous News Feed Line).  To have it all end with a simple handshake and Geshundheight???  No way.  Well, maybe.  I'm Flumox'ed.  It's like Lucy snatching the Football ........... 

[Doug.38PR]

I tried to clock it earlier this late afternoon but i guess there wasnt enough daylight left because i kept getting Error 9 on the chronograph and one reading of 111.9 (??).

But what did happen was a neighbor hunting on an adjoining 800 acres nearby instantly called and ask if that was me doing the shooting.  Specifically said:  “That sounded like something a bit more than a 9mm.”

[greyhawk]

No....No....NO!!!   Absolutely NOT Greyhawk.  It absolutely cannot be that simple.  We're talking the equivalent of effecting World Peace here.  The answer to the confusion simply CANNOT be that simple.  I won't stand for it.  We haven't even approached 3 pages of discussion yet.  There's been no name calling, no shoe pounding, no rattling of Sabers.  It's just too simple.  Lets face it, we haven't started the trains to the borders, Naval units aren't even considering getting up steam.

Perfesser Marvel hasn't lifted his Airship to prosecute this conflict with his patented Snake Oil Bombs.  We're ALL SCREWED!!

Oh the horror.  Or Horrors perhaps.  Oh the humanity (Stolen famous News Feed Line).  To have it all end with a simple handshake and Geshundheight???  No way.  Well, maybe.  I'm Flumox'ed.  It's like Lucy snatching the Football ........... 

aaaaahhhhh  humblest aoplogies to ya both ...... just when ya gettin ready fer some fun and some smarty pants rains on tha parade

[Doug.38PR]

The bullets I use for this load are Speer 250 grain lead bullets. 

I simply load the pyrodex up just below the rim where the bullet will compress the bullet to some extent. 

It appears to shoot just a little low out of my 4.75 inch Vaquero.  About two inches below the bullseye. 

But, as said, it sure is powerful.