The Spencer in "Unforgiven" ... and in Canada

[RattlesnakeJack]

"I see you still have that Spencer rifle."

 (Quoted from the "TO JOIN OUR  SPENCER SHOOTING SOCIETY - PLEASE REGISTER HERE !!!!" pinned thread ...



I know that was probably Eastwood's line .... but of course that ain't no rifle, it's just a wee li'l ol' carbine!    

This, on the other hand, is a rifle ...   ...



Jest some joshin' from a Canadian Militia Rifleman ...  ...



Rifleman of the Queen's Own Rifles of Toronto, who were armed with Model 1865 Spencer rifles in 1866, at the time of the first Fenian Raids into Canada.  (Of only about 3,000 Model 1865 Spencers in full rifle configuration, 2,000 went to Canada, along with 2,300 carbines!)

No. 5 Company of the QOR with their Spencer rifles ...



A detail from the above photo:

[RattlesnakeJack]

Although the United States of America/British North America boundary between the Lake of the Woods and the Rocky Mountains had been fixed on the 49th Parallel by Treaty in 1818, it was not until increased settlement and development in the west that there was much need for an actual, physical survey of that border. The creation of the Dominion of Canada in 1867, and British cession of all of the "North West Territory" (everything between Ontario and the Rocky Mountains) to Canada in 1870, spurred on that need.  Accordingly, between from 1872 to 1874, joint teams of surveyors physically plotted and marked the boundary across this vast hinterland.

An armed unit of Métis (half breed) Scouts was formed to guide the British/Canadian boundary party, as well as hunting for fresh meat and affording protection.  The entire body were armed with Spencer carbines from the 1866 purchases mentioned above, and were allowed to keep them when their service was completed.  This is a photograph of most of them, with their Spencers - "Scouts, Her Majesty's North American Boundary Commission" -



A detail -

[Texas]

Hello Jack, I have one of those rifles marked with the WD and broad arrow cartouche. I believe it was more like around 800 came to Canada from the reading I did. Mine was used in 1866 in the battle of Ridgeway. I had my buddy make up a conversion block for it and shot a whitetail a few weeks ago at 52 yards with it. The QOR was interested in buying it for their museum at Casa Loma but now are strapped for cash. I'm undecided what to do with it at the moment. Was going to use the money for a Harley trip to Alaska this spring. Thanks Texas..

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[Oregon Bill]

Texas, don't be shy about putting up a photo or two of your prize!
And Merry Christmas.

 

[RattlesnakeJack]

Texas, please do post pictures of your Spencer!

The numbers of Model 1865 Spencers which ended up in military service in Canada are very well documented, with records of bothe the purchases themselves and the distribution of them here: 2,300 carbines and 2,000 rifles.

[PJ Hardtack]

Somebody got a pic of the WD Broad Arrow mark on the Spencers?

[RattlesnakeJack]

PJ:

This photo in Edgecombe's "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military rifles, 1855 - 1955", shows the marks on the butt of a Spencer carbine ... the original WD-broadarrow mark, Dominion of Canada property mark (applied after Britain transferred ownership of the Spencers to Canada in 1870) and, in between the two, "I over 20" unit mark signifying issue to the !st Regiment of Cavalry (which became the 1st Hussars in 1892.)

[Oregon Bill]

Very cool Grant. thanks for sharing.

[PJ Hardtack]

Yes, thanks! I may just so mark my coming Spencer for fun, historically correct or not.

I sure hope that I don't get a bummer, because if I do, I will simply put it the box and ship it back to the dealer. I'm tired of correcting faults in Italian guns.

From correspondence with Kevin Tinny (aka 'El Supremo') and others, I now know what to look for and expect.

[RattlesnakeJack]

My rifle was good out of the box ... but then it was brought into Canada from Cimarron Firearms who, from what I have read, seem to have a reputation for checking the guns they sell and ensuring they are OK before they let them out the door.  I also remember my dealer here in Canada saying (a couple of times) that they were ready to ship from Texas ... but then saying there was a delay ...  I just checked the Cimarron website now and see that they apparently no longer carry the Spencer reproductions ... wonder if that suggests they had too many problems with them?

 

What chambering are you getting yours in?  I gather The Grey Fox just got himself one chambered in .45 Colt.  I almost did that, since that is my one and only cartridge for CAS guns, but then decided that since I really wanted it for GAF shooting I might as well go for .56-.50 ... gave me an excuse to buy new brass, a new mould, new loading dies, et. etc.   :-/

[PJ Hardtack]

'El Supremo' sent me pics of a 56-50 Spencer carbine that was 'ready for shipment' from the Taylor's shop. The screw that attaches the rod at the bottom of the breechblock was visible with the action closed. The cure is to bend the lever to allow more upward travel. A buyer should not have to do that. There were some other flaws as well.

I recently returned a pair of Cimarron .44 Spl. Open Tops to the dealer due to poor fitting and quality control. I got a credit account as opposed to a refund.  As far as Cimarron quality control is concerned, I think it's a myth. This is how I financed my way into a Spencer, plus cash, of course.

I suggested that they also should stock dies and brass, but I can get these from Rusty Wood. First thing I'll do is anneal the Star Line brass which I always find to be on the hard side in any calibre I've tried.
 
Mine was ordered in 56-50 through Wolverine who now list it on their website. It makes no sense to me to own a Spencer in anything but the original calibre, ammo convenience notwithstanding. I was told that it has been shipped but might be caught up in the US gov't shutdown awaiting export approval.

I've already ordered an Accurate 51-350S DC aluminum mould for it. It has a nice wide meplat for use in tube magazines. I can use this bullet for my 50-70s as well.
I've got a quality leather cartridge box with tin box liner that I bought for my 50-70s, but I've got a reference book that shows it was also used for Spencer rds. I just have to drill a wooden block to suit.

I have to say that I'm really looking forward to it and the process of getting it to perform up to expectations.

[Coal Creek Griff]

That Accurate Molds bullet is exactly what I use and it works perfectly in my Armi Sport Spencer carbine.

I bought my gun used via GunBroker, which always makes me more than a little nervous since sending it back is rarely an option unless it is clearly not as described when it is first examined.  I always fear that people are selling off the lemons that they couldn't get to shoot well, but in this case all is well.  My gun works great, although with a few minor hiccups which I believe are inherent to the design.  That carbine has become one of my favorite guns to shoot.  I should note, however, that I mainly shoot tin cans at 20 yards or so; I haven't tried any target shooting at distance.  It does kill those cans dead right there.  Only a few leap up and run a few paces before dying.  It is also plenty accurate for that kind of shooting and I mainly shoot the cans on end or just the lids.

After the supply of .45-75 Winchester brass dried up recently, I've become nervous about 56-50 brass.  I'm currently saving up to buy a large batch of brass which I hope will last my lifetime.

PJ: I certainly hope that you get a gun that doesn't have significant issues.  I recall your disappointment with a couple of your other recent purchases.  If you do get a good one, though, I think that you'll really enjoy your Spencer.  I know that I have enjoyed mine.

CC Griff

[PJ Hardtack]

I was just informed that my Spencer was sourced from an unnamed Canadian importer so it will NOT be affected by the US gov't shutdown!

Good news! They expect it to be in their next shipment.

BTW - I amended an earlier post where I mentioned a Spencer with quality control issues. It was NOT a Cimarron firearm but a Taylor's product.

[LongWalker]

An armed unit of Métis (half breed) Scouts was formed to guide the British/Canadian boundary party, as well as hunting for fresh meat and affording protection.  The entire body were armed with Spencer carbines from the 1866 purchases mentioned above, and were allowed to keep them when their service was completed.  This is a photograph of most of them, with their Spencers - "Scouts, Her Majesty's North American Boundary Commission" -

Any chance you have a list of names to go with the pic?  One of those fellows is supposed to be one of my great-greats.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Sorry, no ... not sure where one might try to find that information ...

[RattlesnakeJack]

Well, a quick Google search turned up this 50-page illustrated article - "The Boundary Commission’s Metis Scouts: The 49th Rangers" - which you may find interesting.. It contains a copy of this photo with five of the men identified, as well as information about quite a few of the other individuals in the unit - http://www.metismuseum.ca/media/document.php/14182.Boundary%20Commission%20July%2014.pdf

At the beginning of the article, note that there is the following "Notice to Readers" -

It would be of enormous interest and greatly appreciated if the readers who are related to any of these men could pass on to us (in copy form) any information they may have, such as written oral history the family may have, documented information such as any government forms, letters or notices, also any old pictures that they may have on an ancestor that served with the 49th Rangers. Thank you in advance for your generosity. Contact: Lawrence Barkwell, e-mail: lbarkwel@mmf.mb.ca Phone (204) 586-8474 or Larry Haag, e-mail: larha@mts.net Phone: 1-204-269-2347