New guy .45 Colt questions

[1-12 INF]

Question 1 - After reloading for 35 years, I’ve decided to try BP for my 1860 RM, Ruger NV, Uberti 1873 and Henry.  A saw a guy on youtube load up 35g (2.2 dipper) of Goex 3F, a 1/8 wad, a Ox-yoke lubed wad, a card and a 255g pill - which I had plenty of.  I melted the smokeless lube off the bullets, and pan-lubed with SPG.  Made up 50 of ‘em.  I just joined this forum and read all I could about the .45 and am a little concerned these loads are TOO compressed.  The cases aren’t bulged or anything, but there’s a lot of stuff in that case.

Question 2 - I bought $100 worth of CheyCast SPG lubed bullets, before I learned about the Big Lubes after reading this board.  What’s the best way to use these?  I was gonna try 28g (1.9 cc dipper) Swiss 2F, a 1/8 wad, lube cookie, paper card, and the bullet.

Tons of info here, and thanks ahead of time for your help.

[Coffinmaker]

HA.  Get out yer note pad.  Yer gonna get a bunch of opinions.  Lots.  We are an opinionated bunch.  Some are even described as ...... stubborn and obstinate (me).

First, decide what you want to accomplish.  Then decide how much pain you can stand.  With the weight bullet you are using and the amount of powder, your gonna have all the recoil you can stand in your hand guns.  Kindly remember, the only thing holding your 1860 RM together is the Arbor and a Wedge.  You may well not wish to hammer it that hard on a regular basis.  Your Ruger NV will not be happy with BP.  The design of the cylinder bushing (there really isn't one) allows the blast at the Barrel/Cylinder gap to fowl the base pin real quick and normally there isn't enough Barrel to Cylinder clearance and fowling there will also tend to tie the gun up.  Some folks have better luck, some worse.

Your Uberti 73 (rifle) and your Henry will exhibit some blow-by and the carrier block will need attention frequently.  Recoil will not be an issue with your rifles.  However, your Henry barrel is going to get REAL HOT!!

You will not have happiness with smokeless bullets in the rifles.  Even with SPG they just can't carry enough lube.  For the Rifles, your best bet are Big Lubes.

Now I will shut up and give the "others" a shot at it for ya.  Oh, you only need as smidge of compression with a good solid crimp.

Almost forgot, if you want to shoot smokeless bullets, give APP a try.  Doesn't need any lube at all 

Coffinmaker

[1-12 INF]

"Get three coffins ready..."

I'm a recreational shooter, that would like accuracy foremost for local club shoots, and for cowboy cartridge silhouette with the Henry. I meant my Uberti '73 peacemaker - Colt clone.  I might leave the RNV in the safe then...

I was also a little concerned about the Open Top.  I just made up a couple of test loads that were 24g (1.6cc) 2F Swiss, .9cc of corn meal, a 1/8" lube cookie (SPG) and a 200g pill (card in between each layer).I also made up some 255's this way too.

This board has been a lot of help and educational.

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[Blackpowder Burn]

Can't go wrong by listening to Coffinmaker....................

I like to keep things real simple.  I use Big Lube (or similar bullets with lots of lube capacity - Accurate Molds makes some very good ones).  Then I put in just enough powder (roughly 32 grains in my case) to give me a little compression when I seat the bullet.  And let 'er rip..............Don't need the other wads at all. 

If you want to shoot a lighter load, you can always use a spacer (grits, wad, etc.), but only needed to reduce powder volume while eliminating air space.

I shoot bottleneck cartridges in my rifles (32-20's, 38-40's and 44-40's) because they seal well and I don't have blowback issues.  The actions stay very clean.

[45 Dragoon]

1-12 INF,
  I come from the other side of the .45C open top revolvers. I don't shoot blk. powder any more (very inconvenient) but I do shoot " full power" (compared to store bought ammo) rounds in all my open tops. I don't load "custom" ammo for different revolvers, they all eat the same 900- 1000 fps diet, Dragoons and '60 Army. Your '60 RM should be fine as long as it is set up with correct arbor fit. Smokless is a little more demanding than bp so you will definitely be good. I know arbors are screwed in and a wedge is used to keep everything together but fitted right, it's perfectly fine for what you're doing. Remember, top strap revolvers have screwed in barrels.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

[wildman1]

Actually NMV's do have a bushing on the front of the cylinder. They work fine with real BP. It is just not removable like the SAA type bushing. My main match revolvers are 45 Colt NVM's. All I shoot is BP (Schuetzen) They get used almost every weekend. Use a good BP compatible lube on the pin and cylinder and you will be fine.
wM1
PS Hey Mike how are those pistols doin?

[Lucky R. K.]

My NMV also have cylinder bushings.  Maybe Mr. Maker is thinking of the Remington NMA which comes with no bushing.

Lucky 

[Coffinmaker]

Tiny little clarification.  I personally don't consider that piddly little "nub" on the front of a Ruger cylinder to be a "bushing."

Coffinmaker

[Fingers McGee]

Can't go wrong by listening to Coffinmaker....................

+1.  When I started CAS, I used the .45 Colt w/Goex BP.  Found out real soon that fouling was not my friend.  It didn't take long to switch to 44-40.

FM

[wildman1]

Gee that tiny little bushing measures the same as the bushings on my Uberti Cattleman. I just did 6 stages today at Dusty Bunch in Casa Grande AZ with my NMV 45 Colts with full load BP Goex Cowboy. Ran fine for 6 stages no wiping no lubeing just shooting. Cylinders still spin freely.
wM1

[john boy]

re: Q1 and Q2:  Forget about the lubed wad and card.  Absolutely not needed and a waste of time.  The SPG lube only will keep the revolvers & rifle going for a 5 stage match.  The Big Lube bullets are not a must shooting black powder. The 1st bullet picture is the Chey Cast.  The 2nd picture is the Ideal 454190, original 250gr bullet designed for the the 45LC.  I've shot thousands of these bullets with black powder reloads and a lube akin the SPG... have not had to clean the firearms during a 5 stage match

     

[1-12 INF]

Thanks, gents.  I've made up some loads with 35g, 28g and 22g and the 464190's I just received, using some corn meal for the lighter charges, to bring them all up to 35g in volume total.  I'll try 'em all out.  I did use a card between the powder and the corn meal to prevent it from mixing.

But... I also read in another thread that I can shoot the SPG-lubed Cheycast at modest velocities using smokeless, so I think I'll load them with my favorite WW 231 load - and order up some of the Big Lube ones.

I have Goex 3F and Swiss 2F on hand.  Is there an advantage to using one over the other?

[wildman1]

Goex leaves more hard fouling. The fouling that Swiss leaves will be softer. If you are shooting rifles you will be able to shoot more rounds before fouling becomes a problem with Swiss. Swiss is made with a different charcoal.
wM1

[1-12 INF]

You guys are all swell for answering all my questions.  I appreciate it.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Or drag a moose milk damp bore snake through the rifle barrel between stages and spritz the lifter with moose milk. Works for me shooting .45 Short (.45 CAS) through my 1860 Henry and there is plenty of blow back with that short case.
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Wild Man!!

How the heck are ya??  While I don't consider the little nub on the front of the Ruger cylinder to be a "real" bushing, often the main problem with Ruger is a real poor Barrel to Cylinder gap, combined with odd size cylinder throats.

If you have a pair of Rugers that go a full match ....... HANG ON TO EM!!  Abby Normal!!

PLUS ONE to John Boy.  Grease cookies and wads and such are a waste of time and effort "if" your using the right bullets and lube.  I just happen to be a proponent of "Big Lubes" as they carry a real load of lube.  Also available in lighter weights.

Coffinmaker

[Crow Choker]

Never use filler, cardboard wads, grease cookies either with any black powder cartridge reloading, 38/44/45. AS has been posted, waste of time, as has been posted, use bullet with good grease groove and proper lube (esp with black powder). Ref 45 Colt blk powder loadings--I've always stayed within the 30-33 grain of FFF, have had good results---use Goex-- plan on tryin FF sometime this summer. The 45 Colt barrel will heat up on to, gets pretty hot if ya fire six in rapid succession. Like FF better in my 44 caliber loadings over FFF.

[wildman1]

I'm fine CM. I actually have 3 pair of Rugers that will go a full match with no cleaning etc., 2 pr. 45's and 1 pr. 44-40's. My Ubertis have no problem with it either. The only revolvers I own that won't do a match is a pair of Remington 75's. Even my WB 1911 will go a full 6 stages with BP (150+ rnds).
wM1

[john boy]

I've made up some loads with 35g, 28g and 22g and the 464190's I just received, using some corn meal for the lighter charges, to bring them all up to 35g in volume total.  I'll try 'em all out.

With small BP charges and a 250gr bullet you are going to experience substantial blow back.
 Recommend stay with the 35gr charges and use FFg powder with no fillers or wads

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Been loading 45 Colt with Black Powder for over ten years in CAS now.

No experience with 45 Colt in a rifle, all my lever guns are chambered for either 44-40 or 38-40.

But I fired BP loaded 45 Colt in my 'original model' Vaqueros for many years before a pair of 2nd Gen Colts became my main match pistols. I can see no difference whatsoever in how the Vaqueros handle Black Powder than how a Colt handles it.

Just for the heck of it, the three cylinders in this photo are, left to right, 2nd Gen Colt SAA, 45 Colt; Ruger New Vaquero, 357 Mag; and Uberti Cattleman, 45 Colt. The photo was actually taken for a comparison of the bevels on the front of the cylinders, but should give a rough idea of the comparative sizes of the bushings.

I suspect shooting Black Powder through a New Vaquero would not present any problems, fouling wise.







I agree with the other posters. Wads and cookies and all that jazz are a waste of effort with 45 Colt (45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 too) Just put in enough Black Powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder will be compressed between 1/16" and 1/8". That's all there is to it.

However choice of bullet style and choice of lube is very important. Years ago I went through the whole business of melting modern Smokeless lube out of modern Smokeless bullets and pan lubing them with a mixture of about 50/50 beeswax and Crisco. My experience showed that a typical hard cast bullet cannot hold enough soft BP compatible lube to keep the bore of a rifle coated with lube for its entire length. The bullets were fine for a revolver, but a rifle barrel would get starved for lube about the last 6" near the muzzle. This resulted in hard fouling being deposited which caused a lack of accuracy. Easily remedied with a little swabbing with water based BP solvent, but it was a bit of an annoyance.

After I discovered the Big Lube bullet series there was no going back. Nothing but Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG for me anymore. For 45 Colt there is the PRS 250 grain bullet and a little number I designed myself called the J/P 45-200, weighing in at 200 grains. Dick Dastardly redesigned it a little bit and it is now 210 grains. For 44-40 I only use the 200 grain Mav Dutchman bullet and for 38-40 the 190 grain 38-40 bullet.

My standard load for 45 Colt is the PRS 250 grain bullet with 2.2CC of FFg powder. I hesitate to call out the exact weight of powder because different brands weigh different amounts. I like to use Schuetzen powder, it uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex and leaves less fouling behind. The powder Graf's sells is the exact same powder, packed in Graf's bottles. I have never tried the premier powder, Swiss, because it is too expensive. As a round figure, my 2.2CC load of Schuetzen FFg is somewhere around 33.5 grains.

One word -  because the J/P 210 bullet takes up less space in the case, following the prescription of 1/16" to 1/8" compression, the amount of powder under the 210 grain bullet will be more than the amount under the 250 grain bullet.   

I have not bothered with fillers for quite a long time, too much bother. But I do know it is not necessary to separate the filler from the powder with a card. Once compressed, they will not mix.