What do y'all think of American Pioneer/Cleanshot Powder?

[Doug.38PR]

I've been using Cleanshot Powder (now called American Pioneer) for over 15 years now in ball and cap revolvers.   More recently in cartridge loads for my Ruger New Vaquero 4 inch.

It's an easy to find black powder substitute.  But, in my experience, in spite of it's name, it is anything but clean and it definitely takes it's toll on a gun unless you clean it VERY VERY....VERY thoroughly and unscrew every little part that might have been blown into.  Otherwise, even with a coat of oil, your gun can find surface rust or worse after sitting in the safe after a month or so.

Incidentally, I noticed their website claims you can use plain water on a rag or cleaning patch to clean your gun...is that true?   

What has been y'all's experience using American Pioneer? 


(I'm getting ready to load some for my Uberti Schofield Model 3.  I'm loading 22 gr in .45 Colt using a 200 gr Speer SWC lead bullet)

[Fingers McGee]

What has been y'all's experience using American Pioneer? 

Incidentally, I noticed their website claims you can use plain water on a rag or cleaning patch to clean your gun...is that true? 

My experience has been similar to yours.  While it meters ok in a progressive press, after about 250 rounds I have to completely clean the powder measure because is starts sticking.

It will clean with plain water.

[Coffinmaker]

Actually ....... Currently APP is the only powder I shoot.  Some years back, APP was a royal nuisance.  Full of an annoying light grey dust.  It seems more recent manufacture has been vastly improved.  It's a different color with WAY less dust.  For suppositories, I load exclusively on a pair of Dillon 650s.  I have no trouble with the powder measures ....... Caveat:  I have no trouble with the powder measures as long as I clean the powder bar and mortice after each loading session.  That takes about 2 minutes.  3f meters better than 2f.

Shotgun is APP 2f.  I shoot All Brass Magtech 12Ga hulls.  For shotgun I use a scoop.  Scoop - dump, scoop - dump, scoop - dump > repeat as necessary.

I use absolutely NO lubes on bullets nor in my Cap Guns.

When they say cleans up with plain water, they don't lie.  After a match, I clean up inna shop sink with warm water (optional) and squirt of Dawn dish soap (also optional).  The only Caveat I have here, is clean your guns after the match.  If your in low humidity, you can delay a couple of days.  If your in higher humidity, same day.  Cleaning with APP is no more troublesome than with BP.  For the shotgun, I just squirt the barrels with glass cleaner and shove a patch thru.  Follow with a dry patch, follow with an oily patch.  done.

Soak my cases in water, cut about 25% with white Vinegar.  Soak 15 - 30 minutes, rinse, dry, tumble (45 minutes) done.  I really like APP.

To date I haven't had the chance to try "Premium."  I still have 2 cases from 2 season ago to shoot through.  Oh, after cleaning and re-assembly I still wipe the guns down with an oily rag.  I don't get any rust.

Coffinmaker

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[Yakima Red]

Out here on the frontier good old fashioned BP is the easiest to come by. I have used APP/Cleanshot/Clearshot/whatever. For me I found no advantage to using substitutes. If it works for you and you like it, stick with it. Here we have little humidity so anything you use is a little more forgiving.

Bottom line: Clean yer guns after the match

[Cliff Fendley]

One of the better subs I've shot.

[Doug.38PR]

How does it perform compared to black powder?

[Pettifogger]

Cleanshot is from the stone age.  It has not been produced for years and bears no resemblance to the current production APP.  APP is what I shoot most of the time, especially on a road trip.  APP dust is ascorbic and you need to make sure you blow the dust off your reloading press.  However, once fired it is extremely easy to clean.  I have NEVER had rust and have forgotten to clean a couple of guns for several months.  When I found them I cleaned them up with water and they were fine.  WATER is the universal solvent.  APP fired residue is easily dissolved and removed by WATER.  DO NOT use an oil based cleaner with APP or you will just get a big mess.  You do NOT need moosemilk or that other crap.  Just WATER.  After I shoot my guns one two wet patches down the bore follwed by a dry patch or bore snake and they are done.  A wet rag will clean off everything else.  Every few months a complete take down ensures nothing is going on inside the guns.  After everything is clean and dry a shot of Ballistol will keep everything ready to go for the next shoot.

[Coffinmaker]

APP makes a bit MORE smoke than BP.  I really don't know if there is an appreciable velocity difference or not.  I don't/never own a Chrono and actually don't care.  It groups well, makes a goodly BANG and lots of smoke.  Some shooters have complained APP makes too much smoke.  Some spotters have whined my ammo makes too much smoke (they are WIMPS).  I LIKE APP

Coffinmaker

[Pettifogger]

APP makes a bit MORE smoke than BP.  I really don't know if there is an appreciable velocity difference or not.  I don't/never own a Chrono and actually don't care.  It groups well, makes a goodly BANG and lots of smoke.  Some shooters have complained APP makes too much smoke.  Some spotters have whined my ammo makes too much smoke (they are WIMPS).  I LIKE APP

Coffinmaker

APP generally produces the lowest velocity and pressure for a given load.  And, consequently it also produces the lowest recoil.  For example I took my normal load of APP in a 5 1/2" Ruger Old Army, which is around 26 grains by volume, and chronographed it last year.  I seldom actually weight BP or the subs as the weight is irrelevant.  I just set the charge so that it is the proper height in the case or in the chamber.  My normal load gave me 550 fps.  I was slightly surprised it was this low but have been shooting this same load for years.  Very pleasant for recoil and produces plenty of smoke to meet the smoke standard.  Dumped the APP out of the measure and loaded the same volume of 3f 777 into my ROA.  This load exceeded 1000 fps and the recoil was quite brisk.  (For a competion load.)  Different brands of BP and all the subs produce different results.  Bosnia BP ain't the same as Swiss BP!

[Cliff Fendley]

How does it perform compared to black powder?

I didn't crony the loads, power wise it feels weaker to me than a case full of 2f in the 44-40.

I only shot it because it was given to me and wanted to try it. No way does it compare to BP in my book.

It is WAY better than Pyrodex though and I think shoots a little cleaner than 777. If you can't get real black and only need CAS power levels the APP will probably serve you well.

[Doug.38PR]

The powder loads were between 22.5-23.5 grains (it varied slightly in between in the thrower).  Seated and gave the bullet a pretty decent crimp.    I went downstairs and into the woods and fired off 8 rounds into the backstop.   I didn't have the chronograph set up, but my 4 inch Vaquero had a pretty good kick on each shot and it was loud (even through the ear protection).   American Pioneer seems to generate some pretty good power.  I'd say it's probably up there with 8 grains of Unique smokeless.  (I will chronograph it at a later date.  I now have a little over 80 rounds with me.  50 in an ammo box, 30 on my Rio Grande belt and in my Schofield. 

In addition to this, by the time I got to shot number 4, I couldn't even see the target there was so much smoke.  The smoke stayed together and did not break up.   VERY slowly it moved out of the woods and across the pond staying together.  Looked like a ghostly fog bank.   So slow was it and stayed together so much that I had time to walk out of the treeline, walk uphill, inside, put my coat on, grab my cell phone, walk out to the car and take a photo down hill of the smoke hovering just over the pond.  I even had time to go inside and tell my mother-in-law to check out our haunted woods for her to see. 

[Doug.38PR]

Hey what happened to American Pioneer?   Go to their website and it says the account has been canceled. 

[Bunk Stagnerg]

I understand Alliant Black MZ is the same thing in a different bottle.
Bunk

[smokin6]

Good, I just picked up ten pounds to try out in my cap guns.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Just for curiosity I went to the APP web site and it seems to be alive and well.

http://americanpioneerpowder.com/index.htm

right there
Bunk

[Major 2]

Shockey's Gold is also APP ....I just bought 3 cans at Gander Mountain

[Doug.38PR]

Just for curiosity I went to the APP web site and it seems to be alive and well.

http://americanpioneerpowder.com/index.htm

right there
Bunk

Yes I went there they other day and found it okay.  But at the time of my last post it was just saying "website not found" or "website has been closed" or something like that.   Glad to hear they are still with us.

[Major 2]

To be honest , reloading is was somewhat a open book mystery science test for me  

Reddot ....check the Alliant Reloader's guide.... be dead sure your right and triple check yourself ....

Trail Boss ...( when I was finally able to get some ) The Hodgdon guide , again be sure of your load,  

Black Powder... easy enough,  but I have to deal with BP compatible lubes & if its enough , and fowling,  ah fowling...

all necessary "if" I wanted to shoot more ( otherwise buying factory rounds costing about $120 a match   not including any practice )

So, enter APP  , easy to measure,  simpler tools  ,  no lube issues ,  clean up with water ( be sure you do clean up ! )

APP has made me a more confident reloader.... I can actually reload stress free... still learning but now its enjoyable.

it's a Win Win for me...  thanks to Dakoda Ike & Coffin Maker  

[Montana Slim]

Biggest drawback I've seen is a tendency of this stuff to clump-up due to absorbtion of H2O (= humidity). Clumped-up powder turns a darker color, too. So watch out for this, it can result in squibs. Also, extra care if you use a C&B revolver & have the FF granulation. It doesn't flow well in most flasks (use the finer grade). A friend of mine using FF grade of APP in his NM Remington Army (first outing & new to BP guns)....he underloaded a chamber because it did not flow well in his flask & this resulted in a squib. Yep, then a second shot was fired & resulted in causing the stuck bullet (BIB) to shoot out the muzzle. Final result - a slight barrel bulge where the ball had lodged initially. A great day turned a bit sour after that.

This is a different result than than with real BP. If I ram a ball down in one of my revolvers without powder (aka Dry-Balling), I can remove the mating cone ( nipple, if you prefer), add 2-3 grains of 3F behind the ball and this has never failed to launch the misbehaving ball (44 or 36 cal) out the barrel...and usually make a hole in the target or a ding on steel.

I've personally had BIB from using an older versions of this type of sub...(black canyon ?)...it had a similar moisture absorption problem. Using some of this stuff in some test loads I managed to have 3-4 squib rounds out of 10 sample cartridges. I later dried the powder out using a very low setting on my ELECTRIC oven. Bingo...the powder worked well after this.

Notice there is a packet of dessicant in APP bottles 

Gotta love the unique language of blackpowder...always gives a smile (or gasp) when I'm teaching live class.
Regards,
Slim

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Slim!!  How've ya been??  Good to hear from ya!!

Yes.  APP can clump.  I don't use a flask.  Since I load "off the gun" with a cylinder loading stand (shameless plug for the Tower of Power) I found a flask to be a bother.  I use a small Tuperware container, Scoop I made from a 45 ACP case and a funnel.  Scoop and drop is really efficient, if not exactly the way it was done yesteryear.

I load ALL my Suppositories on a Dillon.  Always (ALWAYS) check the bottle for clumps, then watch as I fill the measure.  2f will bridge.  Because of that, when I load suppositories I use a powder checker and also watch the turret (I load slow).  Too date, no light charges nor heavy charges have gotten by.  3f runs thru the measure like wet grain thru a Goose.  No problems. 

I also have a "ram stop" added to my loading stand which seats the bass to the exact same place overtime and does not compress the load.  APP does not like compression.  I'm lazy (I've said that before) so not having to deal with lubes (ANY lubes) is wonderful.  It is not magic however and one must still clean one's guns after a match (cases too).

I use APP for it all.  Rifle, Cap Guns, Suppositories, Shotgun.  2f in the shotgun.  Super easy to clean up and the spotters just hate my smoke clouds (sometimes I do too).  For the game we play, I seriously think it the best Sub.  I'm opinionated though so your milage may vary

Coffinmaker