Full Power 45 Colt Loads

[Drydock]

Opening the flash hole was designed to duplicate the cross sectional area of the flash holes in original Frankford arsenal rifle ammunition, both boxer and Bennet primed cases.  These in turn were designed by the arsenal to give optimum consistant ignition in HEAVILY compressed military loadings, the loadings that Spencer Wolf was trying to duplicate.  The arsenal discovered with these loads that the greater cross section lowered standard deviations, giving better accuracy at extended ranges.

Wolf himself wrote that this was not needed in lighter compression loadings, 3f loadings, or smokeless loadings. 

[Dave T]

Drydock,

As always your information is both interesting and appreciated. Thanks!

Dave

[riflee]

I once used a 45 Colt load of around 35gr. FFFg powder with a lube pill and a fiber wad. I had to REALLY compress the load.


It shot badly. Cases began to stick.

Later I learned while cleaning that the cases stuck due to the cylinder notches being bulged upwards.  The same gun with a new cylinder withstood a double charge of W231 powder. The shot seemed to scream and stung my bother-in-laws hand. Warning...do not let bother-in-law load ammo.

The gun was a Uberti 1873 type SSA Cattleman.
 I bought a new cylinder and never did the overly compressed thing again. After reading some of William Wellington Greener book and read about detonation I am careful about loading with over compression. It can be dangerous.  Detonation has ruptured revolvers cylinders and Sharps rifles barrels and actions.  Detonation is a strange thing. Powder charges too small can cause them and overly compressed blackpowder loads can too.  Sorta like the powder compressed into fine powder burns at the rear and further compresses the powder in front and detonates it and the bullet acts like a bore obstruction at that point. That's how I remember it to be basically. There's shock waves bouncing back and forth also. William Wellington Greener and his buddy Alexander Henry researched about blackpowder that seemed way beyond their times. Experts they were.


OK tear my post to pieces. That's alright. Maybe some will re-think the overly compressed load thing though. The shooter and by-standers can be harmed by it when guns rupture.


I still have the Cattleman cylinder with the bulged up cylinder notches.  A reminder.


I use charges about 33gr. FFg in my 45 Colts now when I use the Black powder.

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[R.M. Conversion]

I have shot up to 36-37 grains of 2F Swiss and OE in my Ruger New Vaqero with both 255 and 200 grain pills.  Cases extract easily.  But this seems like an awful lot of recoil and the accuracy results weren't as nearly good as with much lighter charges.  This amount of powder doesn't leave room in the cast for a lube cookie either (lube cookies used for economic reasons - still using smokeless bullets, pan lubed with SPG.  I'll switch to Big Lubes when my current stockpile is exhausted..) 

I wouldn't run this stiff a cartridge through an open top gun, though. No reason for it. 

[medic15al]

I'm shooting up to 40 grains FFFG Olde Eynsforde withy 250 Big Lube out of my Uberti Cimarron and Pietta (Heritage Big Boy) with easy extractions. About 3/32 to 1/8 compression.

Lively loads but accurate and no problems in last 6 years.

[Dick Dastardly]

The PRS Big Lube®LLC bullets are capable of incredible accuracy.  That, and the ability to shoot an entire match with no need to clean in order to maintain accuracy or function.  All that lube carried by the huge Big Lube® grove keeps the barrel wet to the muzzle with an nice lube star on the muzzle.  The wet barrel makes for easy clean up at day's end.

DD-MDA

[Grapeshot]

What was your primer condition firing with an enlarged flash hole?
My 35 gr 2fg Goex 260 gr RNFP loads make my CCI 350 primers look quite flat where as a similar power level load with CFE-P  smokeless leaves the primers still have rounded edges.  Just my BP loads flatten primers.

  My primers were flat.  That did not surprise me any.  The larger flash hole was to allow the flame push through the compressed load of black powder for a complete ignition.

Sorry it took me so long to answer this.  I had a computer glitch that would not let me back on the forum.

[Dave T]

The larger flash hole was to allow the flame push through the compressed load of black powder for a complete ignition.

Back in the early 1990s I found a box of NOS balloon head cases and loaded 40g FFg behind a 255g 20-1 alloy bullet. That load was very compressed (at least 3/8") and with a standard flash hole opening and standard primers I can attest to it's complete ignition. Results were 914 fps from a 7.5" 1st Generation Colt SAA.

My research into the 45 Colt told me that load reportedly produced 910 fps so I considered my results spot on.

Dave

[Bunk]

If you want a .45 caliber big boomer, get away from a 140+ year old design and just spend the buck skins to get a modern revolver in .454 Casull and be done with it.
Or keep it up and have a revolver do a violent disassembly at arms length. Are we having fun now?
Gee whiz guys use a little common sense will you? Don't enter a Ford model T in the Indy 500.
Yr' Puzzled Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[ira scott]

They just want to play Elmer Keith! I believe he did disassemble some revolvers trying to turn the .44spl into a magnum. Qh wait, as you said, the .45 Colt has already been magnumized, Dick Casull's .454.  454 full power black powder loads might be pretty cool!

[Grapeshot]

They just want to play Elmer Keith! I believe he did disassemble some revolvers trying to turn the .44spl into a magnum. Qh wait, as you said, the .45 Colt has already been magnumized, Dick Casull's .454.  454 full power black powder loads might be pretty cool!

Elmer used a 350 grain .457 .45-70 bullet on top of a compressed charge of 3Fg.  He blew up a pre 1900 Colt SAA.  We are talking about using new Uberti or Pietta SAA's made with modern, stronger steels.  We are looking for what a 40 grain charge of 2FG feels like using information from a vetted source.  I have taken .454 Casull Brass and trimmed them back to .45 Colt length and loaded them up with 40 Grains of 2Fg, compressed and a 250 grain Big Lube Bullet and touched off with a small rifle primer.  Same results, big BOOM, chest pounding concussion, with a fireball and smoke. 

[ira scott]

I hadn't read before that Mr. Keith used a .457 bullet! He apparently did wonder if the oversize bullets had something to do with the failure. From what I have read the powder was "semi-smokeless" equivalent to 2400. Forgotten weapons has a cool video with Ian inspecting "one" of the SAA cylinders that failed. I don't understand what trimming a Casull case down to .45 Colt length proves? All you did was create a .45 case with less capacity because of the thicker head, so even more compression trying to stuff 40 grains in a modern case. No argument from me that a case full of B.P. is the historical, FUN way to experience the .45 Colt SAA.  Now I'm inspired to go fill up some 500 S&W cases with The Holy Black! 

[Dave T]

If you want a .45 caliber big boomer, get away from a 140+ year old design and just spend the buck skins to get a modern revolver in .454 Casull and be done with it.
Or keep it up and have a revolver do a violent disassembly at arms length. Are we having fun now?
Gee whiz guys use a little common sense will you? Don't enter a Ford model T in the Indy 500.
Yr' Puzzled Obt' Svt'
Bunk

I believe you're puzzled because you missed the point of the exercise. We're not talking about a ".45 caliber big boomer", but rather finding out what shooting the SAA (or a copy) was like if you could go back to the black powder cartridge era and by a box of factory ammunition loaded with either 40g of FFg or 35g of FFFg behind a soft alloy, 255g RNFP. I've done it with both loads (hand loads of course) and it is both entertaining, educational, and quite an experience.

Dave

[Bunk]

that is the king of loads I started out with in the now so very long ago. A Lyman molsd, an Ideal hand tool a can of Du Pont, and a gen 1 single action. When I as twenty it was fun. Now 60+ years later it is not fun and I will leave it to you young guys to shoot the big boomers. So have fun guys and don't mind me. I am just a grouchy old scudder that likes to start conversations.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Bunk]

Good Morning Ira Scott,
The question was raised about a black powder load in a .454 Casull and by comparing the case sizes my opinion there would be very little difference. So, I did a somewhat unscientific test to see what could happen.

Using 4 cartridge cases from my brass pile which were  a .454 Casull, a Starline .45 Colt, a Western .45 Colt old style button head case and a Peters old style button head case and measured the amount of GOEX FFFg black powder they would hold full to the case mouth.

The results as follows the .454 Casull 46.45 grains, the 45 Colt Starline 39.95 grains, the .45 Colt Western 43.23 grains and the Peters .45 Colt 42.13 grains.

It would be, most likely, a little more boom for the .454, but not all that much. In fact, the old Western case holds more  the Starline by a little. These were not compressed loads, just poured into the case until full, then struck level to the case mouth. The average of four was all I did because the numbers did not change by more that one or two tenths.

The .454 is a very high pressure load and the case is just a little longer for safety sake much like the case difference between .38 Special and the .357 Magnum and others.

Respectfully submitted,
Bunk

[ira scott]

Mr. Bunk Sir, I did some unscientific measurements myself.  A 500 S&W case will hold approximately 63.5 grains of FFFG poured and struck level, and about 54 grains with a 1/8" of compression and room to seat a 205 grain HB 50 caliber Minie on top of it. Doesn't look like 60 grains will fit for the full "Walker Experience", but could be quite entertaining! (if you like that sort of thing)

I apologize if this is too far off topic

Respectfully, Broken Nose (Ira) Scotty

[Bunk]

Geez Louise Ira,
That would be a HAND FULL like shooting the .50-70 Government cartridge in a hand gun.
For people that like the big boomers, they should LOVE this one, but for me, like the well known gun plumber, I am a recoil wimp. An 80 grain ball and 15 grains of FFFg  is more my style.
Thanks for the info, though and let me know if you try it and if you survive. it should be verrrry interesting.
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk

[Coffinmaker]

I am a card carrying, registered, confirmed, baptized, sworn ...... Recoil Wimp.  I see no advantage with heavy recoiling, earth shaking, Heavens Rendering handguns.   Except:  Some Lustrum ago, I had an itch.  I wanted to drop an Elk with a Handgun.  So .... I built a special duplex load for 45 Colt in my Ruger Blackhawk with 4 3/4 inch barrel.  Using a friends Chrono (I've never owned a chrono), we confirmed 1580 FPS with a 265Gr cast Keith type semi-wadcutter.  That load in that gun was NOT fun to shoot.  Fired no more than needed to match POA/POI at 70 yards.  NOT fun to shoot.  (Yes .... I did drop an Elk with it)

Surprisingly enough, being the bonafide Recoil Wimp that I am, I think (operatic word "think") I'd really like to own a conversion in 45 Brimstone.  I just don't know WHY??  But .. I have been thinking about it ..............

[ira scott]

If I get around to trying it, I will shoot the "500 Brimstone" in my S&W 8.25" barrel X frame. It weighs within ounces, the same as my Walker replica at about 4.5 lbs.  At least the damn loading lever won't fall down with every shot!

[Bryan Austin]

All my research has pointed to these cartridges being loaded with what we now would consider 3f powder.  I have broke down several original Frankford Arsenal loadings, and all had the finer granulation.

 F's are a modern designation.  Both the .45-70 and the Colt round were loaded with "Rifle" grade powder, which appears to be what we consider a "3"f granulation.  "Musket" grade seems to correspond to "2" f, with "Pistol" grade being close to 4f as seen in original Percussion "Skin" cartridges.  I believe this to be one reason velocity's seem lower with "Modern" powder, because we are consistently using the wrong granulation.

My Trapdoor 45-70s, loaded with 3f, will shoot to the sights, with 2f loads shooting high.

From Winchester's August 1895 catalog

For powder to be used in rifle cartridges containing more than 40 grains, we recommend the following brands and sizes of grains as giving the best results:---

American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 3"
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.G."
E.I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.G."
Laflin $ Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.G."

For the 32, 38, and 44 WCF rifles and ALL center-fire pistol cartridges:

American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 4"
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G."
E. I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.F.G."
Laflin $ Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.F.G."