Author Topic: Full Power 45 Colt Loads  (Read 54397 times)

Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2016, 05:44:27 PM »
w44wcf,

I remember back 30+ years ago, when I was doing this the first time, I had trouble seating my 255g custom 20-1 bullets to an over-all length of 1.6". Compressing 40g of GOEX, even in those balloon head cases I had, took so much pressure it distorted the nose of the soft bullets. I ended up talking a machinist/gunsmith friend into shaping a seating stem to exactly fit my bullet's profile. It allowed me to load the 40g duplicates I was trying to create and later what became my standard load of 36g of FFFg in modern brass without distorting my soft lead slugs. Wish I still had all that stuff. (smile)

Dave

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2016, 09:01:57 PM »
Dave,
As you indicated, the softer bullets won't stand up to more than a bit of compression without being distorted.  Sorry that you apparently don't still have your equipment of 30+ years ago.

For the .45 Colt and 40 gr charges, I have been using a hard cast .44 bullet to compress the powder.

For the .44-40, I was using a jacketed 10MM bullet but recently had an aluminum .420" dia slug made in the profile of the bullet I am using and that works great. I need to do the same thing for the .45 Colt.

w44wcf
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Offline medic15al

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2016, 01:07:18 PM »
I did this chrony test of full powered loads just recently:

 The guns used are a Pietta (Heritage Big Bore) 4 3/4in, Cimarron Old Model P  5 1/2in, and a Uberti Old Model P 7 1/2in.

The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.

4 3/4 Bbl Pietta:

1. 925
2. 903
3. 927
4. 923
5.934
Average 922.4

Cimarron 5 1/2 Bbl :

1. 1004
2. 967
3. 1048
4. 1070
5. 1047
Average 1027.2

Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:

1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average  1026.2
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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #43 on: Today at 08:45:58 AM »

Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2016, 08:56:23 PM »
medic,

From all the research I did years ago, your results indicate that load was a bit much in what I'm gusssin' was modern brass. You got something of an over load in terms of the original performance. As I alluded to earlier top velocities should be in the neighborhood of 860 or so from a 4-3/4" barrel; about 885 from a 5-1/2" barrel; and a bit over 900 from a 7-1/2" barrel. You were getting high 7-1/2" velocity from your 4-3/4" barreled revolver.

Because of the low operating pressure of black powder I doubt hurt anything but in solid head cases those were kind of overloads to my thinking. No offense intended, just offering an observation.

Dave

Offline medic15al

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2016, 09:02:00 PM »
Yeah, I definitely backed off to 35 grn loads (2.2cc dipper) afterward. Easier to get even 200 loads from a pound and no sense in battering myself.
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2016, 08:11:12 AM »
medic151al,
Thank you for the data.  :).  Impressive!  I'll bet those were a handful!

Even though your velocities with 3F Olde E. exceed the vintage .45 Colt loads of yesteryear,
the pressures are still only about 1/3 of what the brass will take.

I found that 40 grs. by weight of Olde E. 2F / 250 gr. pretty much matched the ballistics of the .45 Colt b.p. loading of yesteryear.

In my testing, Olde Eynsford  & Swiss have the highest ballistic strength of the b.p.'s of today.

w44wcf



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Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2016, 04:40:38 PM »
Question for you two guys. I was never able to get 40 grains of FFg GOEX in modern brass and seat a bullet to an OAL of 1.6". As my fading memory suggests I had a fair amount of trouble with 40g of FFFg GOEX in solid head cases as well.

Are Olde Eynsford & Swiss powders that different (denser) than the GOEX of 25-30 years ago or do you guys know some loading tricks I was and still am ignorant of? Inquiring minds (or at least this old one) want to know. (smile)

Dave

Offline medic15al

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2016, 05:12:57 PM »
I drop slowly from an elevated funnel like a drop tube. Ill have about a 1/4in of gap from top of case. Seating slowly on a Big Lube bullet. Can feel the powder compression.
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Offline Grapeshot

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2016, 09:37:45 PM »
I drop slowly from an elevated funnel like a drop tube. Ill have about a 1/4in of gap from top of case. Seating slowly on a Big Lube bullet. Can feel the powder compression.

To reiterate other posts, a soft bullet is not the tool to compress the powder charge in any caliber.  I went the route of using a compression die.  Then I can compress the charge to the required depth without deforming the bullet.  T do this with my .45 Colt, .45/70, and .45 S&W Schofield rounds.  If using the bullet works for you, great.  It did not for me.  My results were impressive when I touch them off.  JMTCW.
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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2016, 06:36:40 AM »
Question for you two guys. I was never able to get 40 grains of FFg GOEX in modern brass and seat a bullet to an OAL of 1.6". As my fading memory suggests I had a fair amount of trouble with 40g of FFFg GOEX in solid head cases as well.

Are Olde Eynsford & Swiss powders that different (denser) than the GOEX of 25-30 years ago or do you guys know some loading tricks I was and still am ignorant of? Inquiring minds (or at least this old one) want to know. (smile)

Dave

Dave,
The pic in several posts above indicates that .28" of compression is needed on a settled charge (powder poured slowly through a funnel from about 4-5" above the funnel).  If I am using a bullet that is 14+BHN, i compress the powder with the bullet. If the bullet hardness is less than that, I compress the powder in a separate operation.

The density of Olde Eynsford is pretty much the same as some current and older standard Goex powders.  Swiss is 10% denser. In other words, 40 grs.of Swiss will occupy the same space as 36 grs of Goex in the lots that I have.

w44wcf
 
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Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2016, 10:10:24 AM »
I went the route of using a compression die.

Never seen or heard of a "compression die". Can you tell me more about this?

Dave

Offline Good Troy

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2016, 12:21:47 PM »
Track of the Wolf sells compresion dies.  I have purchased some for 45-70 and 38-55 from them.  It is basically the body for an expanding die with an adjustable plug.  You adjust the plug to compress the powder to the level you want (depth of bullet).
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Offline Grapeshot

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2016, 06:35:53 PM »
I just read 4foD post: [ I should have specified in my initial post that I'm interested in duplicating full powder civilian ammo. That's confusing enough without adding in the military's inability to settle on what cartridge they were going to shoot (lol).]



The Civilian max charge started out as 40 grains of an undetermined grade of Black Powder.  Then Remington/UMC as well as Winchester dropped the charge to 35 grains of BP pushing a 250 to 255 grain hollow based/cup based swaged conical bullet.

The Military however dropped their charge for the .45 Colt to 30 grains of 2Fg below a one-quarter inch cork wad under a 250/255 grain lead bullet.

The Army then opted for the Schofield round and charged them with 28 to 30 grains of 2Fg and a 230 grain HB bullet.
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Offline gilgsn

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2017, 02:25:16 PM »
Hello,

I have the RCBS 45-270-SA (285gr) mold...
Would this bullet be too heavy for an 1883 Colt SAA?
If this seems reasonable, how much black powder could be safely used, and should the bullet be fairly soft, maybe not too tight or heavily crimped? 25gr with a wad?
Or would a 200gr bullet with say 30gr of 3F be a safer bet?

Thanks!

Gil.

Offline medic15al

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2017, 02:39:37 PM »
Welcome to CASS forum!

With an 1883 I would personally go with a 200 grn with 30 grains of 2FG BP.

I am sure you had the SAA checked for safe operation and would use this load to go easy on the revolver of that age. No use in stressing the old gal.

Pics of the revolver would be welcomed!    ;D

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Offline greyhawk

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2017, 06:25:36 PM »
Holy Crap My Good Drydock!

I had read of the older definitions, but did not realize that "pistol" grade was closer to 4F!

Have you ever tried loading 4F into pistol cartridges,  or do you have knowledge of anyone beside Elemr Kieth who did?

yhs
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I have a friend uses FFFFg in his 357 Lightening - 357 magnum makes a durn fine blackpowder round - 21 grains weight and MR LEE's 158 grain RNFP boolit - have not chronoed it but sounds just nice.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2017, 06:28:07 PM »
If you go back into the old documentation, ie pre ww1, you will find references to the various granulations in terms of "Musket" "Rifle" "Pistol" .  There are others, but I tried to determine what those meant, and how they correspond to the modern "F" designations.  I believe the modern ideas of "2F in 40 caliber and above" et al, came about in the 1950s from early ML reinactors, and it somehow became entrenched as "Old Knowledge"  But like so much BP info from that era, (Cleaning, fouling, lubricant, use of water) it's wrong.

I cannot prove it, but a theory of mine is that someone back in the 50s decided to call 4f "Priming" powder for his flintlock.  This is apocryphal,  as Flintlocks were primed with whatever powder was in the paper cartridge or powder horn of the user.  Few if any Flintlock users, and certainly NO military, ever carried a separate priming powder.  But this somehow got accepted as "Truth".  Well then, what is this "Pistol" grade stuff?  Well that must  have been 3f.  And so on.  Then the johnny come lately cartridge guys accepted that the old frontstuffers must know what they're talking about . . .

Drydock - just interested in how, where, and when, use of water is wrong??  The best blackpowder solvent /cleaning fluid and its free !!!

Offline gilgsn

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2017, 04:10:06 AM »
Thanks Medic. No pictures yet, I just put a hold on it...

Gil.

Offline Dick Dastardly

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2017, 12:10:18 PM »
Moosemilk is my chosen cleaner/solvent/lubricator/rust preventer.  The water does the work and the Ballistol does the rest.  Moosemilk is colloidal suspension of one part Ballistol to Ten parts water.  This is what I spritz my bores with before I tug the Bore Snake thru.

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Offline greenjoytj

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2018, 10:22:04 PM »
Historically speaking, there have been several different .45 Colt b.p. loadings in boxer primed cases over the years.
.........28 grs., 35 grs., 38 grs., 40 grs.

Awhile back I purchased some U.M.C. headstamped .45 Colt b.p. ammunition. I dissected the cartridges and found that three of them contained the 35 gr charge and the rest, 40 grs.  The powder had a polished appearance and screening determined that it was FFG granulation
The 40 gr charges in the SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket aka balloon head) cases required .20" of compression.
Average velocity in a 7 1/2" barrel was 932 f.p.s.
w44wcf

I’ve dug 35 gr charges of  2fg BP out of 45 Colt case sand I don’t know how it could be done with out damaging the individual granuals.
For me the dug out powder (GOEX) broke up to dust mostly finer than 4 fg, true dust.  So I do believe the velocity achieved in the 7 ½ “ barrel loading the dust back into those original cases.

As to the original poster question about  duplicating maximum power original 45 Colt loads.  I think the problem is trying to determine if there was one original load.  I do believe a 40 gr charge was tried by the US Cavlery during initial load development  but it was quickly deemed too hard on the Colt SAA and the shooter.  So the charge was reduced and changed many times there after.  I would say that there was no original load, just a wide variety of loads all tried and some accepted for use by the government.

I load 35 gr of 2 fg GOEX in Starline minimum trim to length brass  with  CCI 350 mag primers and a cast 20:1 alloy 261 gr bullet with SPG lube.  I get a average velocity in an Ruger NV 5.5” barrel of  817 fps.
Just for information using the same components listed above but swapping the BP for 9.0 grs (.2 under max) Hodgdon CFE Pistol got me 1040 fps.

So I think any powder charge 35 grs up to 40 grs could be called your maximum.

I’ve seen  a uTube video of  45 Colt 7 ½” SAA chron’’ng  1000 fps for some shots with 40 gr of BP.

Unless you want to duplex a BP load with some smokeless the MV you get with your revolver with what ever charge of BP you use is fixed by the gun it’s self.  No 2 guns will launch the same load to the same MV.

So what’s like to load up a S&W X frame 460s&w with 2 fg BP?  Should make for a nice big cloud of smoke.  Wish I had one of those.

 

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