Author Topic: Full Power 45 Colt Loads  (Read 54385 times)

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 11:04:38 PM »
Historically speaking, there have been several different .45 Colt b.p. loadings in boxer primed cases over the years.
.........28 grs., 35 grs., 38 grs., 40 grs.

Awhile back I purchased some U.M.C. headstamped .45 Colt b.p. ammunition. I dissected the cartridges and found that three of them contained the 35 gr charge and the rest, 40 grs.  The powder had a polished appearance and screening determined that it was FFG granulation.

I annealed the cases and replaced the primers.  I loaded the powder back into the cases. The 40 gr charges in the SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket aka balloon head) cases required .20" of compression.  I replaced the dried out lube on the bullets with SPG and reseated them.

Average velocity in a 7 1/2" barrel was 932 f.p.s.  In a 24" barrel .... 1,247 f.p.s.
The three 35 gr. cartridges averaged 877 f.p.s. in the Ruger.

By comparison, velocities with 40 grs of Goex FFG ran about 100 f.p.s. less.

In further testing, only Swiss and Olde Eynsford FFG had the ballistic strength to equal the velocity of the powder used in those pre 1911 U.M.C. cartridges.



Here is a pic of a vintage 28 gr. cartridge box I found on the internet awhile back.


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Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2016, 10:49:21 AM »
The more we know the more questions we ask (smile).

According to Drydock's earlier post, the granulation used in the original 45 Colt loadings was closer to our modern day FFFg than FFg.

According to w44wcf's research the powder he found in the rounds he took apart was more like FFg than FFFg. Curiouser and curiouser!

Back in my youth (lol) I loaded 35-36g of FFFg behind a 255g 20-1 RNFP bullet to duplicate the often quoted performance of 910 fps from a 7-1/2" barrel. My thought for this time around was to try the same charge (~35g of FFFg) with a 250g 454190 bullet and see what happens through the chronograph screens.

I will report the results as soon as the components come together and I can make my busted-up self get to the shop and cobble together the ammo. More to follow.

Dave

Offline Drydock

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 07:18:36 PM »
I researched Military loading.  The various commercial manufacturers loaded differently over the years, in response to more power, less recoil, et al.  No different than happens today. 
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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #23 on: Today at 05:43:53 AM »

Offline Good Troy

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2016, 07:49:35 AM »
The 45 Schofield must have been close to the 45 Cowboy (or the other way around, lol).

Me thinks there is several grains powder difference between the two!
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2016, 09:06:25 AM »
Howdy

I picked up this box of Frankford Arsenal cartridges a couple of years ago. As you can see, they were made in 1874, and carried a 250 grain bullet over 30 grains of powder. I am not going to dissect any to see what the granulation is or if there is wadding over the powder, however I suspect there is.






Although these look like rimfires, they are not. These cartridges have the old Benet style internal priming. They are copper cased, not brass, and the dents near the bottom hold the internal anvil plate in place. The round all the way on the right is one of my own reloads for comparison.

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Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2016, 10:06:18 AM »
Driftwood,

Don't blame you a bit for not dissecting one of those beauties. Definitely collectible and having the box and all 12 rounds just adds to the value. With one missing for dissection it would diminish the impact, both visually and financially.

Congrats on a great find/acquisition and thanks for showing it to us.

Dave

Offline Grapeshot

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2016, 11:00:48 PM »
I've always been attracted by the idea of shooting original performance ammo from guns of the black powder cartridge era and I put a lot of effort into accomplishing that years ago.

Research indicated the original load was with FFg but I couldn't get enough of that granulation in modern, solid head cases to duplicate the oft quoted original performance of 910 fps. What I came up with was a very compressed FFFg load of 36g behind a 255g RNFP. From a 7-1/2" 1st Gen Colt I got average velocities ranging from 907 fps to 914 fps, depending on the time of the year (outside temp).

Since this time around I'm starting from stretch with different guns, different bullets, even different brass (brand-new Starline cases) so before I re-invent the wheel (LOL) I thought I'd ask what folks here do for full power 45 Colt ammunition. I'd be grateful for any and all info you're willing to pass on.

Thanks in advance,
Dave



This is a mite late, but I did manage to put a 40 grain charge of GOEX 2fg in some Winchester cases.  I had to compress the powder with a compression die after I poured it thru a drop tube. 
I then seated a 250 grain PRS big lube boolit in the case and gave it a good roll crimp.  I made up two hundred like this and shot them at a match some years ago.  I do not know what the velocity was, but the blast, concussion, and recoil was like touching off a twelve pounder.  I also used fifty of the Lyman Cowboy RNFP 250grain cast bullets.  Same results.   
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Offline fourfingersofdeath

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2016, 02:24:10 AM »
HaHa! Way to go Grapeshot!
All my cowboy gun's calibres start with a 4! It's gotta be big bore and whomp some!

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Offline Blackpowder Burn

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2016, 08:29:48 AM »
Wildman and Dave,

I load 17 grains by weight of Olde Eynsford (or Swiss) FFFg with a 220 grain bullet in my 1911.  The pistol runs indefinitely with this load and no cleaning.  I've fired 100 rounds without cleaning and with no malfunctions.

It's a hoot to bring it to a Wild Bunch match and mess with folks minds!  ;D
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Offline Good Troy

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2016, 09:09:37 AM »
BPB....Are you gonna try Grapeshot's load?  I want to be on your Posse if you do!
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Offline fourfingersofdeath

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2016, 10:16:56 AM »
I have a pair of 45Ruger NM Vaqueros, they are looking good for Grapeshot's load!
All my cowboy gun's calibres start with a 4! It's gotta be big bore and whomp some!

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Offline Good Troy

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2016, 10:31:03 AM »
4FoD...I'd like to see these shot, but don't think I can afford the trip!
I'll stick with my 45 S&W loads for CAS!
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Offline Dave T

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2016, 10:38:56 AM »
I should have specified in my initial post that I'm interested in duplicating full powder civilian ammo. That's confusing enough without adding in the military's inability to settle on what cartridge they were going to shoot (lol).

Back in the late 1980s when I first looked into this most everyone accepted the 40g of FFg charge as the standard civilian load so that was what I duplicated with a lucky find of 50 NOS balloon head cases. I had a custom mould that threw a 255g RNFP 20-1 alloy slug which I sized to .454" and lubed with SPG. With considerable compression I got 40g of GOEX under that bullet and tested the results through rebuilt 1st Gen Colts with 4-3/4", 5-1/2" and 7-1/2" barrels. The results were 865 fps, 887 fps and 914 fps respectively. Since the balloon head cases were not going to last forever (they started failing after the 3rd reloading) I searched for an alternative load in modern brass cases and came up with the 36g of FFFg load mentioned earlier.

I've learned recently that there may well have been as much variation in civilian loads as there was in military versions, but my interest remains in the full blown black powder offerings. If you haven't fired these maximum effort rounds from a SAA revolver you have a whole new experience waiting for you.

For one thing you will be surprised at the power of this black powder loading. I used to routinely knock over the steel targets of the "IPSC in boots" match directors and this was from a load developing just over half the chamber pressure of a standard 38 special (10,000 psi vs 18,000 psi). Then too the fact that all that performance is contained in such a compact, graceful, well balanced and beautiful package as the Colt Single Action Army revolver.

I never won any matches back in my CAS days but then that wasn't why I was there. I wanted to relive the experience of shooting the guns of the post-Civil War West and that included what it was like to shoot the same ammunition they shot back then, not some watered down version or even an entirely different cartridge with half the recoil so I can win a plastic pin or trophy.

That same motivation that drove me 25-30 years ago to pursue what the original performance was, is driving me to seek out the same thing with the components available today with the newly manufactured guns I now have.

Dave

Offline wildman1

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2016, 01:29:17 PM »
Some of the BH cases from the days of BP and the transition to smokiless era actually may have held a little less powder than todays modern brass. I do not know about revolver loads but my 38-56 BH cases weigh more and have less capacity than the modern cases of today. wM1
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Offline fourfingersofdeath

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2016, 04:58:38 PM »
4FoD...I'd like to see these shot, but don't think I can afford the trip!
I'll stick with my 45 S&W loads for CAS!

HaHa! I'mm too old to be fast, but I sure can be theatrical!

I'm not a stickler for absolute adherance to correct historical stuff, but do like to recreate the experience. In addition to that, I have never been one to go for 'cap gun' loads, unrealistic guns, etc. I used to shoot long range rifle / Bisley / Palma style matches but lost interest when they went from shooting rifles that looked like rifles  started watering down the rules and ended up with rifles that looked like space guns. The same as when I used to shoot 'combat' revolver matches. I kept my trigger pressures standard and my loads reasonable. With ear muffs on, the other guys sounded like they were shooting cap guns, mine sounded like a real gun. Did I win? No. Was I ever going to win? No. Did I enjoy the experience? YESSSSSSSSSSSS! When questioned about my gun, loads, etc, etc, I would say, I'm not trying to win, I'm just trying to beat the big guy's last score (me) and have fun.

It's still fun and no matter how you approach your shooting (or anything else in life), is your business. Good onya as we Aussies say.
All my cowboy gun's calibres start with a 4! It's gotta be big bore and whomp some!

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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2016, 09:28:06 AM »
.45 Colt / 40 grs. Swiss FFG / 257 gr. bullet / SPG
Marlin .45 Colt Cowboy Rifle / Tang Sight
Benchrest

300 meters / 327 yards  ;D



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Offline fourfingersofdeath

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2016, 10:47:35 AM »
That's mighty fine shooting!
All my cowboy gun's calibres start with a 4! It's gotta be big bore and whomp some!

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Offline w44wcf

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2016, 07:59:04 AM »
Thank you. I did shoot from a benchrest but  the load / rifle did the work. ;D
Bullet was the RCBS clone of the  historically correct 452190.

Here is a comparison between a settled 40 gr. charge by weight in early and current brass.
The early balloon head case has about 3 grs. more capacity.

Swiss powder is 10% more dense than Goex so 40 grs. by weight of Swiss in modern brass
would require about the same compression as Goex in the SHBP case.




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Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2016, 10:04:07 AM »
Somewhere in the back of my stuff pile is a cigar box full of the old .45 Colt button head cases.
i would like to try loading some to the original specs. but they are almost rimless, do not have the groove under the rim, and will not fit into any shell holder I have.
As interesting as it might be the only way to load them would be with a Lyman tong tool that dates back to the early '50s when i started hand loading. The pleasure is not worth the pain.
Yr Obt Svt
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Offline pony express

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Re: Full Power 45 Colt Loads
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2016, 05:35:32 PM »
I have some of those, too. I do have a shellholder that will fit them, but it's different than the one I use for my other .45 cases. They tend to "pop" through the shellholder when priming on the press. I just put them away and use modern ones.

 

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