Substitutes & Powder Measures

[Dave T]

What are the pros & cons of using a powder measure with some of the substitute black powders? Since they all load volumetrically a powder measure should be more than accurate enough. What I'm not sure about is the safety factor. Lyman had a version of their old No 55 powder measure specifically for black powder a few years back, but I've always been told to never load black powder in a progressive press. Never figured out how that sorted itself out. Does it make things different if your using a substitute instead of the real deal?

Enquiring minds (well at least my mind) wants to know.

Dave

[Pettifogger]

Many, many people have loaded thousands of rounds with the subs using standard powder measures.  Most of the sub websites say it is safe to use them in powder measures.  The only issue is that APP tends to have a lot of dust and it has to be blown off the measure and reloading press every so oftern or it will attract water.  Of the common subs, 777, APP and BlackMZ, they all work fine in powder measures on progressive presses.  I have loaded thousands of rounds in a variety of calibers.

[pony express]

I've used 777 quite a bit in my Lyman 55. Don't have a progressive press, so I can't say anything about that. With the Lyman, after loading subs, you need to disassemble and clean it after each use.

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[Dave T]

...you need to disassemble and clean it after each use.

Hey pony express,

Is that so you can use the measure for other powders or does this apply even if you only intend to use it with the substitute?

Dave

[wildman1]

After every use to avoid corrosion. wM1

[Fingers McGee]

Many, many people have loaded thousands of rounds with the subs using standard powder measures.  Most of the sub websites say it is safe to use them in powder measures.  The only issue is that APP tends to have a lot of dust and it has to be blown off the measure and reloading press every so oftern or it will attract water.  Of the common subs, 777, APP and BlackMZ, they all work fine in powder measures on progressive presses.  I have loaded thousands of rounds in a variety of calibers.

What Larsen Said ^^^.  I've loaded thousands of rounds using T7, APP, and Pinnacle, as well as real BP on a Hornady Lock N Load progressive press, outfitted with the Hornady BP measure, with no problem - other than making sure to clean the powder measure thoroughly at the end of the reloading session.  APP will corrode the steel in a minute.

[Coffinmaker]

Aw Heck.  Long as we're piling on (dog pile onna quarterback) I might as well jump in.  Limited data though.  I only load either real BP
or APP.  The "old" formula for APP (light grey color) was a pain.  Super dusty.  Nuisance to clean up after.  Loaded gobs of it with my
Dillon 650 and did a lot of dustin and cleaning.

The current formulation of APP (I hear there is an even better one) is no where near as dusty.  I've loaded a bazillion rounds with the
"new" APP formulation with no problems.  I run it (APP) thru my Dillon powder measure very successfully.  A cautionary note though.
It's a good idea every so often to take the powder bar out (large powder bar) and clean it.  It WILL get sticky.  Same same the the
case bell/powder drop die.  After a while the inside of the powder drop will look like a sewer pipe.  Easy peasy to clean though.  Regular
cleaning will prevent the sewer pipe.

I will add, I primarily load 3f on the progressive.  Meters thru the measure much much better than 2f.  With 2f I get occasional bridging.
The bridging is not a huge problem, just an annoying nuisance.

I have had exactly the same results with real BP.  3f meters nicely and as with APP I do watch for bridging.  I also have the powder
alarm on my presses to help prevent over/under powder charges.

I personally see absolutely NO reason NOT to run BP and subs thru a progressive.

Coffinmaker

[Dave T]

Wow, you guys are getting me thinking…and at my age and condition that could well be dangerous. Thanks for all the responses and feed back. Much to think about, chew on and otherwise mull over.

Since getting back into these guns after a 25 year lay-off, I was going to try to go the smokeless route. I haven't even found a good powder to use in the 45 Colt, let alone worked up a load and I already can tell I'm not going to be very satisfied going that route. For ten years, back in my youth (lol) I shot nothing but black powder. I didn't want to have to deal with the clean up as some days I'm not physically up to doing anything after a range session but unloading the truck and that's an effort.

The appeal of at least a BP substitute in the 45 Colt is so strong I may have to give in. I'll miss the stink of sulfur (ya get to where ya like it) won't be there but the push of the low pressure recoil, some billowing smoke and the different sound may be worth it. And from what I hear, immediate clean up isn't quite as critical, at least not in the dry desert where I live.

Now if my busted up spine will just put up with this (smile).

Dave

[Coffinmaker]

Dave,
I only load APP or Real Black for a reason.  Since you had some previous experience, I'll try to keep this one short. 
BP, in and of itself is not very corrosive.  Hardly at all.  It is hydroscopic (right word??) and it's residue traps moisture next to the steel of
the gun.  Rust.  But, depending on where you reside, not necessarily immediate.

The subs are or can be chemically corrosives all by themselves.  777, Pyrodex and to a lesser degree APP are or can be VERY corrosive in
and of themselves.  The least corrosive is APP.  The easiest to clean up is APP.  APP also has a little less wallop than 777 or pyrodex.
The most corrosive of the Subs is Pyrodex.  After Pyrodex, cleaning should be immediate.  777 has a lot of wallop.  It is a very "hot"
propellant.  I personally have no experience with 777 beyond having fired a friends gun loaded with it.  Ooffda.  Has some wallop.  777
is the driving reason the Cowboy 45 Special case was developed by my friend Adirondack Jack.
The reasons I champion APP are least corrosive .. some of my guns go several days after a match.  Easiest to clean up.  Little soap and
water .. Done.  A little less oomph.  I'm recoil shy.  Oh, and I almost forgot.  APP requires NO LUBES.  No glob over the ball, no grease cookies, nada.  Makes it's own lube.  Did I mention easy to clean up??  Oh Yes.  As a bonus, APP generates more smoke than real BP.

With Pyro, I have actually seen guns "flash" rust on the way to the guys (me too) car after a match.  If you can't guess, I really like APP.

Coffinmaker

OK.  Fairly short ... OK?? 

[Dave T]

Coffin guy,

Thanks for the info. I had never heard of APP before I found CasCity and have yet to see it for sale anywhere. I loved shooting the real thing all those years ago but my disability problems make me very leery of going there again. Some days just getting home from the range and locking the guns in the safe is a major accomplishment.

I remember after a CAS shoot years ago, when I shot 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle and a double barrel shotgun, spending more time over the utility sink in my shop cleaning guns than I had spent shooting at the match. Can't go that route again but I can tell smokeless is not going to be very satisfactory.

I tried Pyrodex way back when and gave it up for the real thing (smile). I'll have to at least try Triple 7 and, if I can find any, APP before I settle for smokeless.

Again, appreciate your information.

Dave

[Coffinmaker]

Happy to Oblige.

Coffinmaker