Smith Carbine: Original Load Data?

[Smokey Twicepipes]

NOTE: I know that this post is not about the Spencer rifle, but I have been directed to this area since I understand many hear are knowledgeable about the Smith carbine. If this thread needs to be moved, I apologize in advance.

Hello everyone! I have become greatly interested in the Smith carbine, and obtaining a reproduction Pietta made model is on the short list. I am curious though as to what the original military-issued loads for the Smith carbine were? I understand that a .50 caliber spire point conical bullet of approx. 360 grains was used to top a hard rubber or foil lined paper case, but I've heard some conflicting reports as to what the original powder charge would have been, as well as what original velocities with said bullet would have been.

I have heard that 50-52 grains was the standard load, while others have said about 40 grains was the standard load of powder. Also, what type or granulation of powder was used? In short, my goal is to reproduce to the closest possible extent the original true ballistics of the Smith carbine as used during the American Civil War.

If anyone out there could please give me some information on this, preferably with a source, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much everyone, and sorry for posting in the SSS section, I hear there are people smart on the Smith carbine here!

Take care all,

Smokey Twicepipes

[Two Flints]

Smokey,

If you don't get the info your looking for in a reasonable amount of time, you might want to take your post to:

The Powder Room @  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,110.0.html

or

The Darksider's Den @ http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,19.0.html

and the

N-SSA Small Arms Forum @ http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/forumdisplay.php/8-Civil-War-Small-Arms

Two Flints

[El Supremo]

Hello, Smokey:

One credible source for black powder granulation info. is "The Winchester Sutler". Please read the historical info. on their website.  It indicates that the granulation for Civil War era cartridges was the equivalent of modern (GOEX, NOT SWISS) 3Fg black powder.  Perhaps they can provide a reference for the info. As of Jan w020, that 'site is down.

Modern reproductions of CW era rifles and carbines VARY considerably in bore dimensions.  Pietta Smiths are all over the place with as much as .008" variation and final bore dimensions often tighter than most originals.  Putting a CW era dimensioned bullet in such a bore will not reproduce CW ballistics even if weight of bullet and powder are correct.  Rifling twist rates also vary, materially in some instances, from originals. Some early Smith carbine repro's also had bores that were larger at the muzzle than breech.  Many were later lined.  Inspection of a used repro by a TRULY capable gunsmith is needed to determine if issues exist.  Mr. John Holland can point you to such people.

I suggest that you contact Mr. John Holland, the Chairman of the N-SSA's  Small Arms Committee ("SAC") via the N-SSA's Forum.  But, the main Spring National Skirmish is this week.  He and those he might direct you to will be slow to answer. 

One other thing to consider is that loads for the Smith may have varied.  There were changes to lots of such aspects during that period.  As one especially knowledgeable CW rifle historian shared:
"You can find most anything on these guns".  Because Smiths were produced by a government SUBCONTRACTOR, there may be no "official" drawings, etc other than letters reciting general dimensions.  My experience is that even museums often mislable things.  Collectors don't usually concern themselves with three-decimal place bullet and bore dimensions. 

There is  much incorret information on what would otherwise appear to be authoritative websites.   I prefer to get several opinions/answers.  And the helpfull and accurate person in one instance may be wrong in the next. 

John Holland has probably seen more Smiths than anyone.  He should be able to provide bore and twist details and HIS historical data base.  Norman Flayderman's "Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms" could also help because a few SAC issues involving physical characteristics have been resolved to Mr. Holland's satisfaction with info from it.   Then you have to determine IF your repro matches.  If not, your ballistic results, even with a known load, will be only an approximation.  Close enough for government work -- was our remark. 

All the best,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Advertising]

[major]

As Two Flints said your best bet is to go to the N-SSA web site to get good information on the Smith.  John Holland is probably the best authority that can be found on the web.  The N-SSA Nationals ended Sunday so within a couple of days everyone should be back home and on the N-SSA forum.

[El Supremo]

Hello, again, Smokey:

Please remenber to share, here, what you learn. 

So many like you have dug into these topics and re-discovered important details. 

Thanks in advance.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[Smokey Twicepipes]

Thank you all so much for the help. I have spoken with John Holland before and he is very informative.

So I've dug up some sources that cite the original loads used 40 grains (both the "India rubber" and paper/foil cartridges) but another source that cites 50-52 grains were used.

I see that there are some original Smith cartridges for sale on the auction sites... too bad most go for north of $250, otherwise I would simply buy one and break it down into components and measure the powder charge myself.