Author Topic: Wood finish to match history of sport  (Read 14223 times)

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2016, 02:19:46 PM »
That make the question beg, "best" for what??  Shotgun going to a Duck Blind,  Bench Rest never out in the rain, Deer Hunter out in the woods and brush, Elk rifle, riding in a saddle scabbard, Wall Hanger??  Historically correct restoration??  "Best" get very complicated.

We could get a pretty good Brouhaha going here.  The main problem, "most" don't have a clue what different finish mediums do or don't do.  Humongous number of "Old Wives Tails," based on actual ignorance generated by "information" not based on actual skill or
knowledge of "finishing."  Just something that has been repeated so much by so many, it becomes revered as "fact."  Fact even though
it may have no relationship to reality.

Delmonico is right on the money.  Most folks today have no clue what was actually used in those halcyon days of yesteryear.  Most, also
don't have a clue as to what type of application provides actual protection for the wood.  That which is ascetically pleasing to some, may
actually provide almost no protection for your valued wood.

Coffinmaker

Offline Blair

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2016, 03:08:37 PM »
Coffinmaker,

All very good points. All of which can relate back to what I said about "just what would be most correct?"

Seeing how you have some idea on, how about to start providing some answers, why don't you start?

My primary experience takes me back to the finishes used by the US National Armories starting in 1795 up to just after WWI.
I can go a little earlier than that, (perhaps about 50 year if we stay only with gun stock finishes) but that should do pretty well through most of our respective time period?
 My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
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God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 03:18:24 PM »
That make the question beg, "best" for what??  Shotgun going to a Duck Blind,  Bench Rest never out in the rain, Deer Hunter out in the woods and brush, Elk rifle, riding in a saddle scabbard, Wall Hanger??  Historically correct restoration??  "Best" get very complicated.

We could get a pretty good Brouhaha going here.  The main problem, "most" don't have a clue what different finish mediums do or don't do.  Humongous number of "Old Wives Tails," based on actual ignorance generated by "information" not based on actual skill or
knowledge of "finishing."  Just something that has been repeated so much by so many, it becomes revered as "fact."  Fact even though
it may have no relationship to reality.

Delmonico is right on the money.  Most folks today have no clue what was actually used in those halcyon days of yesteryear.  Most, also
don't have a clue as to what type of application provides actual protection for the wood.  That which is ascetically pleasing to some, may
actually provide almost no protection for your valued wood.

Coffinmaker



Spot on, vague questions have little chance of being answered properly.   

Whats funny is the bench rest, never in the rain would in most cases today get the best stock finish, poly urathane over a true fiberglass stock, and can be applied at your local body shop.   ;)
Mongrel Historian


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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #23 on: Today at 12:56:29 PM »

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 03:27:00 PM »
Most "correct" and "best" are not necessarily the same thing.  Gunstock finishing and furniture finishing pretty much followed the same
routs.  Those craftsmen used what was readily available and cheap.  Not necessarily "best."  The same criteria applies today.  Furniture makers and Stocktakers use what is readily available for a nominal cost and effective.  Some of the materials use depend on where you
happen to be.

I'm not going to address what was most correct.  The gunmakers in Pennsylvania use a different formula than the gunmakers in Missouri.

Best again, depends on intended use.  Weatherby used an Epoxy blend.  Others will use Lacquer.  Epoxy is very hard and resists abrasion
and impact.  Lacquer is fragile.  Doesn't resist abrasion and chips under impact.  Had the gunmakers and furniture makers had
Polyurethane Spar Varnish, they would have used it.  Readily available, relatively cheap, easy to apply, good resistance to abrasion and
impact, water resistant.  Looks good when done.  Not traditional.  Traditions change.

Coffinmaker

PS:  OIL finishes provide almost NO wood protection at all.

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 05:08:53 PM »
Very true about oil finishes, how ever they do have the advantage of being able to fix boo boos in many cases with out refinishing the whole stock, something the others do not lend them selves to well.   
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 06:07:47 PM »
  I'm with the Prof, correct or not, an oil finish does a wonderful job of enhancing wood, even without the application of stain. Correct? It's correct for me and others who appreciate it. Another attribute I appreciate is the ease with which nicks and dings are repaired; just rub a little more oil on the blemish and that's it!

   But back to the original subject, if any of you own older Winchesters that have seen real world use, then you'll understand that using the "correct" finish for the "correct" look is academic. My two '73's, one 126 years old and the other 130 years old, wear stocks that look pretty much like my oil finishes. I presume the red hue that was once there is gone due to over a century of the rifles being handled and used. I own a couple of old '97's and their wood is pretty much the same way.

 CHT

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2016, 08:14:38 PM »
Here is where the Brouhaha starts.  SO much of what has been posted is based on personal preferences.  Has noting to do with the actual chemistry or performances of what "we" apply to the wood.  Nature makes wood what it is.  Warts and all.  Then, in our infinite wisdom, we try and improve what nature makes.  Kinda silly, you think about it. 

Oil applied to wood can enhance the grain appearance, also can darken the wood.  Again, we're talking about personal preference.  Not what is best for the material.  If you want to really enhance the grain, before you take drastic measures, simply wipe denatured alcohol
on the piece.  Same affect will happen with some clear varnish finishes. 

I really don't want to get into a "deep" discussion on this forum.  I just realized just how much there is for most of you to have to learn before you can understand what is involved in real finishing.  This is not a school format.

Just this.  Before you jump all over someone and "tell" what is "best" for "completing" a gunstock, try and remember, your relating your
personal preference.  It may have nothing to do with what is actually "best."  The person your trying to impress, just may not really like
your results.  Especially if it takes a month to do.

Coffinmaker 

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2016, 09:24:15 PM »
Well said and back to the original post, the job looked good, from the pictures, but the finish was not period correct.   I like a full filled linseed and I don't want to see a sanding scratch, if others don't like it, I could care less and if it gets damaged some I can refix it.   

Funny how so many want to be PC in a game where little is PC, and the same seldom vary into doing living history where PC is more important.  Actual period finish on a gun used to shoot steel target against an electronic clock, I don't see it. 
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2016, 11:39:46 PM »
Here is where the Brouhaha starts.  SO much of what has been posted is based on personal preferences.  Has noting to do with the actual chemistry or performances of what "we" apply to the wood.  Nature makes wood what it is.  Warts and all.  Then, in our infinite wisdom, we try and improve what nature makes.  Kinda silly, you think about it. 

Oil applied to wood can enhance the grain appearance, also can darken the wood.  Again, we're talking about personal preference.  Not what is best for the material.  If you want to really enhance the grain, before you take drastic measures, simply wipe denatured alcohol
on the piece.  Same affect will happen with some clear varnish finishes. 

I really don't want to get into a "deep" discussion on this forum.  I just realized just how much there is for most of you to have to learn before you can understand what is involved in real finishing.  This is not a school format.

Just this.  Before you jump all over someone and "tell" what is "best" for "completing" a gunstock, try and remember, your relating your
personal preference.  It may have nothing to do with what is actually "best."  The person your trying to impress, just may not really like
your results.  Especially if it takes a month to do.

Coffinmaker 

 I don't think applying oil to a stock has anything to do with improving the wood, or is silly at all. Yes, oil does enhance the grain, but its primary purpose is to protect the wood, I think we all agree on that. Is it best at this? I doubt it, but it's what some of us happen to prefer. My guns are used extensively and I find an oil finish natural, durable and easy to maintain.

  I haven't seen anyone in this thread yet proclaim their method or choice of finish is best and as we've all said, it's mostly personal preference. I've tried a couple of different finishes and found oil best suits my needs. I enjoy the rubbing in the final coats and watching the wood transform and the grain become more vivid.

 Here's what "period correct" finish looks like:
 
 126 years old:

 

 130 years old:

 

  They both look like oil to me, but I'm no expert by any stretch.

 So, no brouhaha here, just discussion.

 CHT

 

Offline Delmonico

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 10:46:43 AM »


  They both look like oil to me, but I'm no expert by any stretch.

 

 


I guess not, if you can't be sure, I think this discussion has run it's course and the point has been proven because I sure ain't going to bother trying to explain how to tell the difference.
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 01:32:14 PM »

I guess not, if you can't be sure, I think this discussion has run it's course and the point has been proven because I sure ain't going to bother trying to explain how to tell the difference.

 

Offline Blair

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2016, 02:29:45 PM »
Hmm, I wonder how this will play out?
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2016, 02:38:38 PM »
Maybe a class in identifying finish, seems one is needed.   ::)
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2016, 12:01:42 AM »
Maybe a class in identifying finish, seems one is needed.   ::)

time to bring in a violin maker?

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Offline Red Cent

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Offline Blair

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2016, 02:36:43 PM »
Red Cent,

Thank you for posting this information.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Wood finish to match history of sport
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2016, 12:00:03 AM »
http://prorestorers.org/notes/earlyFinishes.htm

Excellent article. Few today know (or remember) that Colt used varnish on civilian guns and oil finish (raw linseed oil) on Military contracts by Gov't request. Winchester gave the customer the option of both, with the varnish being a bit more expensive. Most of the "best" grade English guns were almost always finished with raw (not boiled) linseed oil which without dryers does take time to dry. This was confirmed on a the Double Gun forum awhile back based on interviews with a retired Purdey stockmaker. The ruddish color was obtained by steeping alkanet root in the jars of raw linseed oil.

 

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