New project idea ...

[tommy4toes]

I've been reading up on the early winchester years, and the manner in which the New Haven arms company was bought out and folded into Winchester firearms company. One of the predecessors to the 1866 was an Oliver P Winchester designed Henry improvement that loaded by sliding a wooden ( or brass) forend forward and loading the magazine tube from the bottom of the rifle.
 The first cartridge would go back into the lifter, and the subsequent cartridges would push the magazine follower forward, which was held forward for loading by  a spring-loaded catch on the forend. There was no loading gate on the receiver, as this was a pre- Nelson King design.
Apparently a few of these were made and sold overseas, and there is an example preserved in the Cody museum( which means a nice little vacation for me).

Sound interesting?


T4t

[Jake C]

It does indeed sound interesting. I've always loved things that are a bit different from the norm. I'm intrigued, but I can see why we went to the King patent.

[Blair]

I would really like to get a chance to see just how this system was setup and worked.
I have only ever seen one, and it was a look only thing. NO touching kind of thing!
But, I too think it would be a very interesting mod.
My best,
 Blair

[Advertising]

[tommy4toes]

I will have English patent and design drawings before too long- I'll be sure and send them along.
T4t

[tommy4toes]

PS.... Some of those rifles went to Switzerland and Mexico I believe.

[Professor Marvel]

I seem to recall this ....
It took some searching

and here it is

The 1860 Henry is such a fine rifle that even early on Hollywood sought to fake it by tearing the wood off some of their 1892's.    Since owning one I've lost weight, gotten smarter, and am better looking. The notion of the '66 being an 'improvement' is debatable (I have both and a '73). Here's some pictures of a transitional Henry before Mr King put that ugly hole in the side of the frame:

yhs
prof marvel

[tommy4toes]

Wow - thanks Prof !!!

[Jake C]

Okay, that's actually pretty cool looking! I wonder how effective it was in actual usage?

[tommy4toes]

My question is how was the forend kept forward while loading? Another spring catch?

The book I'm reading says that Nelson King's design was ultimately chosen because of efficiency - less tooling needed to be changed to implement it than the other improvement designs.

T4t

[Coffinmaker]

T4T,
I've sen pictures of what you speak.  Just can't remember where.  The rifle had a Brass/Bronze/Gun Metal short fore arm that slid forward
to expose the loading slot.  Really kind of cool looking.  Weird, but cool.  I personally didn't like it so I've never been tempted to make a
copy.
Of course, I'm also one of those who don't see the totally enclosed, round magazine tube as an "improvement."  The original Henry pattern
barrel/magazine are far superior.  So There!! 

Coffinmaker

[tommy4toes]

LOL point taken. I'm still in the research phase, but I will have copies of the patents sometime after Thanksgiving. Interesting way to change a perfectly good 66 I think.

T4t

[matt45]

I've seen that weapon on the other side of the glass case @ Cody- it does look like there is a spring catch @ the forward part of the forearm. 

[Blair]

Pro Marv,

Great photos. Thanks!
What is the cartridge caliber shown in the open mag tube?

It looks like a modern center fire, perhaps a 44-40?
My best,
 Blair

[tommy4toes]

I'm thinking I can hide the whole thing in the forearm..... The spring catch is easy enough and the magazine tube cut also.

I was also thinking that perhaps a ball detent would work for holding the forearm while loading and to help keep it closed also  - the brass side plate is a piece of cake.


T4t

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My Good Blair -

the photos actually came from Lone Gunman in a thread posted way back on January 13, 2006,
found here
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6082.msg82733.html#msg82733
Unfortunately he hasn't been back since April of 2011
hope this helps

I'll keep looking ...

Aha - here it is, an auction posted in this forum by Fox Creek Kid showing an original with a brass forearm
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/3013-386/

yhs
prof marvel

[Coffinmaker]

Yep!!  That was it. 
Thanks Prof M!! 

Coffinmaker

[tommy4toes]

Thanks Prof - very cool!

[tommy4toes]

Thanks for the great pics and links, Professor.

I think I figured  out how it works.... the side button lever raises/lowers a wedge that fits into positioning cuts/detents on the right side of the magazine tube. The bottom spring catch engages the cartridge follower rim and pulls it towards the muzzle, then becomes a detent for the cartridges as they are pushed past it. One cartridge goes into the carrier, maybe first, I dunno.

Upon moving the forearm rearwards the catch is cleared by riding up on the outside of the magazine tube, releasing the cartridges.

The follower is the key - it resembles a bullet with a single, wide grease groove. Got that from studying the English patent from Houze's book.

anyone got a 66 receiver and/or round barrel ?

T4t

[Mike]

You need a 1860 frame (Henry)
I need two.

[tommy4toes]

Yep - here we go again Mike