Author Topic: Titegroup in 44 colt  (Read 5296 times)

Offline will52100

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Titegroup in 44 colt
« on: October 16, 2015, 08:58:42 AM »
After who knows how many rounds of BP through my 60 RM conversion, I tried some smokeless.

Load was 200 grain bullet, 4.2 grains titegroup, CCI primer and Wolf primer, starline brass.

The published data suggest I should have gotten an average velocity somewhere around 750-800 FPS, what I got was 648 FPS, and 663 FPS.  Published data list 4.0 grains start and 4.8 grains max.  Wondering why the big velocity loss?  Gun is tight, and has the 8" barrel.  Bullets were alox lubed cast Lee's.

Anyway, not looking for a magnum round, so the lower velocity doesn't really bother me, just the discrepancy from the published loads.  This is the same titegroup powder I use with my smokeless 45 colt loads.
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Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 09:05:24 AM »
What is the diameter of your bullets?
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Offline will52100

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 10:36:21 AM »
As cast .430, the BP rounds I use I size to .429 and lube.  The revolver is a cimmeron, it's designed for inside lubed bullets, not heel based.
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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #3 on: Today at 12:28:23 PM »

Offline Mike

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 02:22:28 PM »
Crimp may not be corret???
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Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 02:24:58 PM »
.429" bullets is fine for the Italian bores.
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Offline Jake C

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 02:38:23 PM »
I tend to agree with Mike. My guess is crimp.
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 04:06:09 PM »
Were the loads they listed worked up in an un-vented pressure barrel (Many thines the case) or a vented revolver barrel?   

If it was an unvented barrel then that sounds about right for differances.

My old Barnes book lists 640 fps with a 210 bullet in factory loads and 660 with the 225 so you are right around the old BP factory velocity.

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Offline Montana Slim

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 08:29:23 PM »
Del's on track. We're talking about a test barrel setup such as (example) a 10" heavy barrel mounted typically to something like a Remington 700 bolt action receiver. I borrowed an action from Olin some years back for testing 9mm ammo with various configurations of accuracy barrels.

The loading data publisher (Hodgdon) might have details in fine print somewhere, or fill you in via customer support....if you really want to know.

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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 08:55:55 PM »
Del's on track. We're talking about a test barrel setup such as (example) a 10" heavy barrel mounted typically to something like a Remington 700 bolt action receiver. I borrowed an action from Olin some years back for testing 9mm ammo with various configurations of accuracy barrels.

The loading data publisher (Hodgdon) might have details in fine print somewhere, or fill you in via customer support....if you really want to know.

Slim

I'd say if the velocity is similar to factory ammo then be happy and go with it.
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 09:06:36 PM »
I'm sure I'll make at least a few a little peeved at me again, but back in the days when people actually read loading manuals cover to cover, most of us knew that, just like velocities with factory ammo, revolvers were worse with the gap, but even guns with out a cylinder gap got less velocity, because most test barrels were 26 inches long and most hunting rifles had 22" barrels.   
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Offline will52100

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 10:42:03 PM »
Thanks, about what I figured.  I took a look at the cylinder gap and it's pretty open, more so than most of my top strap guns.  No way to tighten it except take some off the gas ring and a bit off the barrel lug and arbor.  Had to do that with a 51 conversion once.  Not something I want to do as long as it shoots.

There roll crimped, same as my BP rounds.

Mainly wanted a second opinion to make sure I didn't miss something.

Cartridges of the Old West list 210 grain bullet with 23 grains of 2F at 660 FPS, which would put me rite where I need to be.  But, Hodgdon puts me at 787 FPS with a 200 grain bullet with 4 grains of Titegroup.  My base load is 26 grains 3F Graf's BP, I will have to chrono them to see where I'm at velocity wise, been a while but I think I was around 780-ish.  Should have wrote it down in my load book.

Anyway, funny thing is, I tested both 44 colt smokeless and 38 colt heel base BP loads.  Both loads had less deviation with Tula and Wolf primers than CCI's.  Not sure what's up with that.
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Offline Long Johns Wolf

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2015, 03:28:13 AM »
One of my Uberti conversions in .44 Colt used to produce key holes on the paper targets and only minimal recoil.
After some investigation it turned out that the factory had fitted the piece with a matching barrel in .45 cal.
The factory's QA was glad that I brought this to their attention and fitted a new barrel at no charge ... which solved the issue.
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Offline will52100

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2015, 07:41:13 AM »
Had the exact same thing happen with my first 60 RM, it had a 44 colt cylinder and a 45 colt barrel.  Was wondering why the accuracy wasn't very good.  Put it on paper and there were sideways bullet imprints.  Miked the bore and back to cimmeron it went.
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Offline Montana Slim

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 08:23:50 PM »
BTW, I size my lead bullets to .430 for my appropriate "44" cartridges: 44 Russian, 44 Colt & 44 Magnum revolvers.

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Offline Matthew Duncan

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2015, 06:28:14 PM »
Published data.  What length of barrel did they use and how from the end of the barrel was the reading taken?
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Offline will52100

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2015, 07:03:02 PM »
The published data I was using was from loaddata.com, supposedly out of a 8" barrel.  Not sure what kind of gun, assume a revolver, either open top or SAA type.  My load is 4.2 grains of titegroup with a 200 grain cast bullet at .429 with alox lube.  Acourding to the data I'm seeing I'm about a 100FPS below what the minimum load of 4 grains gets at 787fps.  Not a huge deal, my 660fps is putting rite there with most black powder loadings and close enough to where I want to be.  Just thought it was wierd as I'm mostly a lot closer to any published data.  Oh, and I shoot through the chrono from about 15' away, no idea how far back the tester who published at load data was.
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Offline Matthew Duncan

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2015, 07:58:43 PM »
If you barrel is shorter than theirs, that would easy give you the 100 fps difference.
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Disclaimer:  I have not slept in any hotel recently, not a certified CAS rule web lawyer.  Have not attended any RO III or RO VI classes.  Opinions expressed are by a cowpoke who believes the year is 1868.

Offline will52100

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2015, 08:14:57 PM »
I could understand that, but my test loads were through a 8" barrel.  Unless they had a real tight cylinder gap, that's the only real variance I could come up with.
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Offline Matthew Duncan

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2015, 05:56:04 AM »
The type of chronograph and its distance from the end of the barrel will also cause a variance.
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Disclaimer:  I have not slept in any hotel recently, not a certified CAS rule web lawyer.  Have not attended any RO III or RO VI classes.  Opinions expressed are by a cowpoke who believes the year is 1868.

Offline will52100

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Re: Titegroup in 44 colt
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2015, 10:14:32 AM »
If 10' and type of chrono make that big a difference, then what's the point of using one?  I could understand 20-30fps from that, but would expect something else going on to be over a 100fps difference. 

Like I said, not really worried about, but interesting talking about it anyway, always learning something new.
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