Author Topic: Hot loads in Cattleman  (Read 46884 times)

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2015, 07:41:19 AM »
Well maybe we are getting somewhere after all  ;D  Just so we don't get too side tracked I'll reprint my original inquiry

Just wondering. Off the shelf 45 Colt ammunition is generally loaded to be safe in older SAA's but on some of the new clones such as Uberti, it is possible to slightly increase the powder charge and still be safe and if so, how much of a bump?

So, I was possibly wrong about off the shelf ammunition okay for old black powder frames but it is still at the lower potential end.
 
Now, on the black powder- I am shooting that right now in my percussion Colts and the lock work is pretty similar. I would not mind using it in the 45 Colt if it gives better power, accuracy in a safe pressure range. I don't mind the clean up after shooting.

And I DID SAY slight increase.  Maybe instead of Hot Loads I should have said SOMEWHAT WARMER loads.

Getting back to the original question, let's take a look at the current factory .45 Colt ammunition data for 250-255 gr bullets....

250 gr.
Magtech - 761 f.p.s
Winchester - 750 f.p.s.
Black Hills - 725 f.p.s.
Ultramax - 800 f.p.s (was 730 f.p.s. in 2014)
Ten-X - 695 f.p.s.
Remington - 750 f.p.s.
 
255 gr.
Hornady - 725 f.p.s.
Winchester - 860 f.p.s.

As we can see there is a difference in performance (and pressure) between some of the brands.  

Now lets take a look at the Hodgdon data for 250 gr cast bullets...
There are two sections for 250 gr bullets, one is for Hornady XTP and the other is for Cast RNFP which is the one you want if shooting cast bullets.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
then choose 45 Colt..
>check the 250 box.
>get data  .. scroll down to the Cast RNFP and click on the +

Note that there are several powders that develop 900+ f.p.s. and one that develops over 1,000 f.p.s. while generating at or less than SAMMI MAP for the .45 Colt. Their data was taken in a 7.25" barrel

Stay safe and Have fun!  
w44wcf

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Offline T J B

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2015, 04:40:59 PM »
 Plenty of power for deer and Black Bear.out to 50 yards . the CFE powder is a great powder I have used it and I am quite pleased this is the canister powder of a military non canister powder and is very efficient.I use the Keith 255 SWC

Offline Montana Slim

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2015, 10:32:10 PM »
...and, don't get too worked up on the magic strength of a modern marlin 45-70.
I've seen one split down the middle of the receiver, forend and barrel from an excessive charge whilst attempting to nudge-up a light load using a pistol powder. The good news was only a few slinters and powder burns to the hand on the forearm.

faster is better......or so he thought.
He saw the "light" and came clean as a warning not to push it..

A freind has a pair of 7 1/2 cattlemen in .45...he learned quickly (one season) from firing 250 grain + 40 grains of black that the load would start to seriously loosen them up....he didn't wait for the frames to split before making a change.

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #123 on: Today at 04:32:32 PM »

Offline T J B

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2015, 03:40:37 PM »
 + 40 grains of 2f black powder in a modern 45 case I doubt that.

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2015, 03:46:19 PM »
...and, don't get too worked up on the magic strength of a modern marlin 45-70.
I've seen one split down the middle of the receiver, forend and barrel from an excessive charge whilst attempting to nudge-up a light load using a pistol powder. The good news was only a few slinters and powder burns to the hand on the forearm.

faster is better......or so he thought.
He saw the "light" and came clean as a warning not to push it..

A freind has a pair of 7 1/2 cattlemen in .45...he learned quickly (one season) from firing 250 grain + 40 grains of black that the load would start to seriously loosen them up....he didn't wait for the frames to split before making a change.

Slim

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  Loosen them up where? I've shot the soup our of a  couple of my Ubertis with loads running 250-260 gr. bullets no less than around 830 fps, and in many cases 100 fps or so faster, and neither of them is any worse for wear.

Offline Good Troy

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2015, 03:59:52 PM »
Quote
firing 250 grain + 40 grains
Slim, I think you meant "250 grain and 40 grains" of BP?  This can be read as plus 40 grains, as in more than 40 grains.
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Offline Good Troy

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2015, 04:01:28 PM »
Quote
loads running 250-260 gr. bullets no less than around 830 fps, and in many cases 100 fps or so faster
Cholla Hill,
Just curious...is this what you use for CAS shooting events?
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Offline Bunk Stagnerg

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2015, 09:15:08 PM »
Get two identical Italian clones. Start at the book maximum for any powder/bullet combination.
keep increasing the load by half a grain until the top strap and top three chambers of the cylinder come off.
Back off one half grain and consider that the maximum...for that gun anyway.
happy now?
sarcastically submitted
Bunk

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2015, 09:29:05 PM »
Cholla Hill,
Just curious...is this what you use for CAS shooting events?

  Nope.  44 Special loaded with a 165 gr. RNFP at around 700 fps out of my revolvers.  The loads of which I speak are what I shoot at the house and when hunting  and romping about the woods. Fact is just tonight after work I fired around 50 rounds of "light" loads all consisting of 6.5 grs of 700-X unDer bullets ranging from 255 to 280 grs. The loads i typically shoot.out of.my 45 Colts run the same bullets in the 900 to 950 fps range in my 4 3/4" Uberti. Fun stuff! I'm addicted to shooting.

Offline w44wcf

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2015, 10:26:08 PM »
+ 40 grains of 2f black powder in a modern 45 case I doubt that.

T J B,
Actually.....yes, one can get 40 grs. by weight in modern 45 Colt brass.

Brass - Starline
Bullet - 454190 - 250 gr  copy of original bullet

40 grains by weight settled...
.24" compression - Goex FFG
.24" compression - Olde Enysford FFG
.17" compression - Swiss FFG

Some early 45 Colt Black Powder cartridges I dissected had anywhere from .13" to .20" of compression depending on the case and type / lot of powder used.

w44wcf
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Offline T J B

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #130 on: August 18, 2015, 02:13:11 PM »
 Nope.  44 Special loaded with a 165 gr. RNFP at around 700 fps out of my revolvers.  The loads of which I speak are what I shoot at the house and when hunting  and romping about the woods. Fact is just tonight after work I fired around 50 rounds of "light" loads all consisting of 6.5 grs of 700-X unDer bullets ranging from 255 to 280 grs. The loads i typically shoot.out of.my 45 Colts run the same bullets in the 900 to 950 fps range in my 4 3/4" Uberti. Fun stuff! I'm addicted to shooting.

 And remember that the book max will be the 1900 era SAAMI limit using an IRON FRAMED 45 Colt.now the thinking begins.

Offline Good Troy

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #131 on: August 18, 2015, 02:50:31 PM »
 Fun stuff! I'm addicted to shooting.

Yep...I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more shooting!
 ;D
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Offline will52100

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2015, 03:42:02 PM »
Quote
Get two identical Italian clones. Start at the book maximum for any powder/bullet combination.
keep increasing the load by half a grain until the top strap and top three chambers of the cylinder come off.
Back off one half grain and consider that the maximum...for that gun anyway.

Exactly!
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2015, 04:21:15 PM »
Exactly!

 Not sure what the point of this post or the quoted post. The same could be said of ANY firearm.

Offline will52100

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2015, 07:14:19 PM »
The point being, when you start going beyond published loads, unless you have a laboratory, you don't know where your at till the gun comes apart.  By the time you see pressure signs on the brass and primer, it's most likely too late.

Even if you don't blow the gun up, a steady diet of blue pills will wear it out in short order.  Do what you want, but post like this is one reason I don't shoot others hand loads.

I'll agree that modern SAA's are stronger than ones made in 1906 or so, but how much stronger?
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #135 on: August 18, 2015, 08:20:58 PM »
The point being, when you start going beyond published loads, unless you have a laboratory, you don't know where your at till the gun comes apart.  By the time you see pressure signs on the brass and primer, it's most likely too late.

Even if you don't blow the gun up, a steady diet of blue pills will wear it out in short order.  Do what you want, but post like this is one reason I don't shoot others hand loads.

I'll agree that modern SAA's are stronger than ones made in 1906 or so, but how much stronger?

  I see. Why don't you relate your experience with loads such as those to which you refer. I'd love to know exactly what parts of the revolver wear out first. Then when you're finished, I'll relate my experiences.

Offline T J B

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2015, 08:32:10 PM »
The point being, when you start going beyond published loads, unless you have a laboratory, you don't know where your at till the gun comes apart.  By the time you see pressure signs on the brass and primer, it's most likely too late.

Even if you don't blow the gun up, a steady diet of blue pills will wear it out in short order.  Do what you want, but post like this is one reason I don't shoot others hand loads.

I'll agree that modern SAA's are stronger than ones made in 1906 or so, but how much stronger?
I have used a Colt SAA in 45 Colt made in 1957 with a load of 255 SWC and 10 grains of Unique as a hunting load for over 30 years with no ill effects on the gun and I practice with this load often .The load was a listed load in the old Lyman book.
 Common sense  is always called for. This load works for me  I am not suggesting to use this in your guns.

Offline will52100

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #137 on: August 18, 2015, 08:53:53 PM »
My experience?  OK, from open tops to SAA's.  I've seen head space open up and end shake increase due to frame stretch on SAA's.  On open tops I've seen very little wear except when you get into the Walkers.  I've shot one will full house loads till the arbor stretched enough that the hammer wouldn't set the caps off, along with the wedge being beating up and the wedge slot battered up.  I will admit I've never seen in person a SAA blown up, but I have seen a few that started out tight and after a few thousand rounds of heavy loads get very loose, including damage to the firing pin hole in the frame.  Of course those were not real case hardened colts, but there you go.

As I said, a few warm shots probably won't hurt it, a steady diet of them will shorten the life.

You go over published loads and you damage your gun you've got no one to blame but yourself, and hopefully nobody is standing close to you.
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms

Offline Cholla Hill Tirador

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #138 on: August 18, 2015, 11:34:51 PM »
My experience?  OK, from open tops to SAA's.  I've seen head space open up and end shake increase due to frame stretch on SAA's.  On open tops I've seen very little wear except when you get into the Walkers.  I've shot one will full house loads till the arbor stretched enough that the hammer wouldn't set the caps off, along with the wedge being beating up and the wedge slot battered up.  I will admit I've never seen in person a SAA blown up, but I have seen a few that started out tight and after a few thousand rounds of heavy loads get very loose, including damage to the firing pin hole in the frame.  Of course those were not real case hardened colts, but there you go.

As I said, a few warm shots probably won't hurt it, a steady diet of them will shorten the life.

 

 First, the thread is about the Cattleman, or 1873, so your experience with open tops, is irrelevant to the subject.

 So you've "seen" headspace open up and endshake increase? Were these your revolvers or someone else's? If they were yours, how many of what load did you fire to cause the perceived problems? If they weren't yours, how many of what load did the owner fire? How do you know the problems were due to the frame stretching? Did you have before and after measurements of the frame or did you simply proclaim that it had stretched and call that good? Seems to me the cylinder spacer would be the first thing to take a battering, especially if it wasn't properly fitted.
  Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming heavy loads did wear on the revolver, is it something terrible if a revolver "only" lasts a few thousand rounds when loaded and used to the cartridges potential? For Pete's sake! That sounds pretty good to me! I see nothing wrong with using a revolver and wearing it out. Sure, a revolver might last an eternity with CAS loads, but likewise my pickup would probably last several hundred thousand miles if I kept it in the garage, never pulled a trailer with it, and only drove it 30 mph when I did use it, but what's the point in that?
  My personal experiences are quite the opposite of yours. I have two Uberti .44 Specials that I've wrung out pretty good. One way more than the other. As I mentioned in a previous post, I bought it used as a 44-40, fitted a .44 Special cylinder and have fired a few thousand rounds out of it since. I don't know exactly how many as my only reference is empty primer cartons and last time I figured it up, which was several months or maybe even a year ago, I was at about 3500 give or take a couple hundred. By now I've no doubt I'm at 4000 or better. Most of the loads have been a hair under max charges of Unique under a 258 gr. SWC, with the remainder being significantly over published max with the same bullet. Guess what? The revolver is as tight as ever and still shoots fist sized groups at 50 yds. So my experiences are pretty much the opposite of yours.

 
Quote
 You go over published loads and you damage your gun you've got no one to blame but yourself, and hopefully nobody is standing close to you.


 1) Why would I blame someone else if my choice of handloads damaged my firearm?
 2) My range is private.

 

Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Hot loads in Cattleman
« Reply #139 on: August 19, 2015, 11:38:49 AM »
The best way to shoot an equivalent of a 44 mag is to get a 44 mag.  Elmer Keith be damned.
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