What's the advantage of Light Weight Firing Pin Extension, Winchester Model 1873

[Rick53]

Besides the obvious weight reduction. Can someone explain what's the advantage of Light Weight Firing Pin Extension, Winchester Model 1873, that Pioneer GW sells? Appreciate it:

[Pettifogger]

The theory is that typically when you do an action job one of the things you do is lighten the firing pin spring.  The heavy firing pin extension has mass and can set off a round through inertia in an extreme situation such as having a stuck round and then slapping the lever in an attempt to chamber the round.  This can cause an out-of-battery discharge (OBD).  (There are some YouTube videos demonstrating this phenomina.)  The lighter firing pin extension has less mass so it is less likely to contribute to an OBD.

Found the videos

[Mike]

That is scary.  This is why i belive thing should be left alone.

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[Blair]

I do not know if this Shooter changed or modified anything. Based on what was shown here.
What I do know is that He prefers .32-20 in his revolvers. Was his rifle also modified to this caliber? Was it short stroked?
These are all questions that need to be asked.
My best,
 Blair

[Mike]

My first thought was that there was a round in the chamber and carrier, but not sure now. Will keep looking.

[Cliff Fendley]

I do not know if this Shooter changed or modified anything. Based on what was shown here.
What I do know is that He prefers .32-20 in his revolvers. Was his rifle also modified to this caliber? Was it short stroked?
These are all questions that need to be asked.
My best,
 Blair

No reason to modify anything. Uberti makes 32-20 73 rifles. That's what I have been shooting in main match most of the time since my neck and shoulder problems. I love the caliber for black powder.

[Major 2]

I'll have to ask him , George is a friend I shoot with often .... Don't think its a 32/20 though
he has a 32/20 - in a 92,  I've seen him shoot .

[Pettifogger]

The "problem" is inherent in the design.  Heavy factory springs mask the problem but it is there.  The problem (or at least one of the problems) is when a round gets stuck partially in the chamber.  Shooters often try to force the round in and often, as shown in the videos, smack the lever to try and force the round into the chamber.  The firing pin extension has enough mass to keep moving forward after the lever is smacked and set off a round.  Locally people have enough experience with OBDs that when a shooter has a jam with a toggle link gun and starts trying to force the lever a LOT of people yell to stop and ground the gun.  Nothing to do with a short stroke.  Has to do with basic physics and inertia.

[treebeard]

So how common are these OBD's? Have not fired a '73 but have been keeping my eye out for one . I have shot
a number of 92's in the various Winchester calibers with no problems and was assuming the 73's would be the
same. Just want to be safe if I get one of these.

[Pettifogger]

Not terribly common or the 73 would not be the number one choice of top competitors.  The discussion usually comes up when people are discussing the wisdom of removing the trigger safety on a 73.  With lightweight coil springs that are now available for the trigger safety there is no need to remove it.  66s are slightly more prone to OBDs because they don't have trigger safeties.

[Major 2]

Just to clarify

Cypress Sam in the Video is George Mann...he is a veteran SASS shooter , Discipline director, and often top shooter.
He is well know and respected, he has the skills & equipment  to smith his own guns , he reloads for himself...
I've been in his shop . And I have handled his firearms ....

He is at a SASS shoot over on the coast today 7/18 , but when I get a chance , I'll phone him and see if he has analyzed the event.
I don't know the date when the event happened...and frankly had not heard of it , till the U tube link was posted .



 

[Pettifogger]

It's been discussed a bazillion times.  If you watch the video you can clearly see him jerk the lever trying to chamber the round.

[Cliff Fendley]

That is right and even the lever safety does no good to prevent like in the video. The OBD was caused from jerking the lever slamming the bolt forward and it coming to a rapid stop against the cartridge case but the firing pin continued over riding the firing pin return spring.

I can see where a lighter firing pin extension could help but still no guarantee it would prevent this from happening.

[Mike]

My opinion for what it worth as i dont live in the US is, leave well alone. These altered gun are unsafe.
Range officers should stop the unsafe action working when the gun jams. The gun should be removed from the fireing point to a safty area and cleared by some one who knows how to do it properly, take the gun apart to remove the round.
If the round has got stuck for what ever reason the shooter should have the rest of his rounds checked before any more stages shot.
I have seen some very badly loaded rounds at shoots, shooters forcing rouns into cylinder etc. One older guy was hamming a round into a single shot rifle.
This my opinion. KEEP Safe and shoot longer.

[Major 2]

As  promised , I have the response from George  Cypress Sam

Roger,
That happened 5 or 6 years ago over at the Ruskin match.  The gun is my '73 that
I use for my main match gun, caliber .357 but shooting .38 specials.  The gun
had and still has, the lever safety in working order.

The hammer did not fall to fire the round.  The round was fired by the inertia
of the firing pin extension slamming against the primer when I tried to force
the round into the chamber.

The culprit was a bulge in the case about 1/4" from the base that prevented the
round from cambering properly.  When I slammed the lever in an attempt to force
the round to chamber, the inertia of the firing pin and firing pin extension was
heavy enough to fire the primer.  Since the round was so far from being fully in
the chamber, the explosion just blew out the top of the cartridge case and
didn't over stress the action.

I was able to duplicate the slam fire by making a primed case with an
obstruction to prevent the last quarter inch from chambering.  I could then slam
the lever forward and cause a primer detonation every time.  I later put a
titanium (much lighter) firing pin extension in the gun and wasn't able to
duplicate the slam fire with the lighter extension.

Somewhere on U-tube there's a video of the test, duplicating the accidental
discharge.  I think it's on Wyatt's U tube account.  If I can find it I'll send
you a link.

I think what caused the bulge in the case was that I was using "junk" brass,
probably that someone had fired with hot loads.  When the case went into the
re-sizer, it sized down to about a quarter inch from the base and then wouldn't
go into the sizing die any further.  When I tried to chamber that round, it just
stopped at the bulge.

I hope this helps.
George

[Coal Creek Griff]

Very instructive.   Thank you.

CC Griff

[Major 2]

Clearly,  just as Pettifogger , Cliff Fendley & Mike surmise.... George collaborates

Bad cartridge = bad day ,   

[rbertalotto]

I just discovered this thread with a search for removing the firing pin spring in an 1866/73......That second video is a doosey! Sure glad he had safety glasses on!

I don't know what parts were changed....but I bet he changed his shorts! 

I appreciate the operator for sharing his experience. Now I'm a believer in a light weight firing pin in these rifles.

I shoot a 66 without the trigger safety and I've had two OOB discharges. Both times it slammed the lever forward with enough force that it stung my fingers!  This has happened over a couple years of shooting thousands of rounds so it is rare.

Does anyone know the difference in weight between a standard weight firing pin and the Titanium version offered by the various tuner gunsmiths? Could the stock firing pin simply be flutted to reduce weight?

I believe a lighter weight firing pin would remove some of the OOB liability of a reduced firing pin spring.....Yes?