Author Topic: Jim Baker, Indian Scout  (Read 11694 times)

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« on: June 15, 2015, 08:42:59 AM »
Good Morning, Folks:

I have referenced a book I just finished reading a few times in different threads and thought
I would put out some information, post a few pics (Gawd Willing) and ask a couple of questions.



This is a picture of the "borrowed gun" that supposedly disfigured Jim Bakers face in 1865. Anyone ever heard of a piece like this?



This is probably the clearest picture I've found of Jim Baker and is the one I would like to build my scout personna around. Note the beard so this is after 1865.



Now the fun begins. Take a look at this rifle and compare it to the other pics. In the book narrative it is described variously as
Bakers' "favorite rifle", "he made the stock for it" and  is identified as a SHARPS. Not all of the rifles pictured appear to be the same rifle to me. Anyone have any thoughts?



Another rifle pic.....



Jim Baker's hats..... the brim looks far smaller than see in the other pics. I wonder if its even the same hat.



I included Jim Baker's knife because he was supposed to have made it himself.



Lastly about the clearest pic I have of Baker and his rifle. Note the botas

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2015, 09:21:51 AM »
Did anyone catch my question about the rifle pictured here?  Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2015, 10:23:36 AM »
Bruce,

Yes, I did.
The sling looks to be set up similar to the first photo of Baker's Sharps.
However, the butt plate looks to be different. This could be because part of Baker's shirt sleeve is covering up the butt plate in the second photo. The photo just isn't clear enough to say, in my opinion.
I would guess both are Sharps Rifles, but I couldn't say which model type.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #3 on: Today at 01:29:20 PM »

Offline ChuckBurrows

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2015, 10:41:11 AM »
 Like most frontiersmen Baker owned more than one gun in his long career. For instance in this painting of Jim (1860's?) - http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/16/5d89dc25f4f8beed8bd6b7da8d3655c4/l.jpg - the rifle appears to be a product of the Hawken Brothers shop.
The image of the muzzleloader you pictured above - this style rifle (with individual variations) was made in the thousands by several different makers of the period. The image above with Jim holding his favorite rifle sure looks like a Sharps, which were used by some mountain men as early as the early 1850's - mtn man Bill Hamilton notes in his book that when he and his group reached the Calif Gold Fields in IIRC 1852-53, they traded in their Hawken rifles for Sharps rifles and then used the barrels of their Hawkens as pry bars!

As for hats the same thing - Jim wore different hats at different times.
aka Nolan Sackett
Frontier Knifemaker & Leathersmith

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2015, 11:12:11 AM »
Chuck,

All of what you say are very good points.
However, those Sharps rifles and carbines that pre date the introduction of the New Model 1859/'63's, do not lend themselves well to being converted to center fire cartridge. This is because of the "slant" breech and block designed receiver system.
Neither Photo shows the receiver section well enough to tell.
Mention of the cartridge caliber of Baker's Sharps Rifle maybe of some help in identifying the Model type?
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2015, 08:27:48 AM »
You are great! Absent a decent picture (discounting the painting) is there a location
that would display this period of firearms? What I was thinking of doing is taking
pictures of these pieces and comparing them to items on display. The Bill Cody
Museum in Wyoming was one thought unless you folks can think of someplace better.
Certainly the idea would be to approximate what Baker used with its modern counterpart.
Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Major 2

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2015, 05:55:24 AM »
Here is bit clearer print of the photo , the above cut and pasted from a book is grainy.

Based on this photo and the now visible cartridge belt,   I'd say the Sharps is a 74 and the tang sight is clearly seen.
In the second photo the octagon barrel is becoming visible.....
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2015, 10:29:21 AM »
Many thanks!!

I'm a Used Book Store fiend and stumble over a book on old firearms
yesterday. Based on what I saw there I had been preparing to put my
money on a "New Model 63". I was thinking that trimming the stock back a
bit might have been what was referred to as making his own stock in the
picture.

How did you get those clearer pics....or was it just the luck of the draw?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Major 2

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2015, 10:57:06 AM »
Google is your friend

put " Jim Baker, Indian Scout " (your title not mine) in the search engine , select Images .....

when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2015, 11:22:55 AM »
Bruce,

Also the butt plate (on the stock Major 2 re posted) is not the standard semi-crescent butt plate usually used by Sharps.
It is more like the butt plate one would find on "Gemmer" (old Hawken Shop type style) altered sporting rifles.
The stock alteration may not have been something he did himself but something he had done by a professional gunsmith. This is just one other thing to consider?
My guess would be to go with an M-1874 Sharps Rifle that looks and fits best into what you can see in this photo.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 08:38:36 AM »
Thanks, Blair: thats what I have in mind.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 11:46:10 AM »
Bruce,

Check out www.davide-pedersoli.com
Click on the British flag in the upper right corner to get everything in English.
Then click on Rifles and the click on Sharps Rifles.
They offer a pretty wide selection of Sharps of all types.
Should you find something to your liking, let me know and I will post the info for Pedersoli's major US importer.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2015, 08:43:40 AM »
Thanks a lot, Blair:

Not to pick nits, but I have been looking over the field (Pedersoli, C-Sharps, Shiloh, etc)
and have yet to find a piece that has the sort of stock I am seeing. I'm not
thinking of the buttplate as much as the foward loop for the sling, Would you
think that such a characteristic might have been an exception or an option offered
on, say, the sporting model. Honestly I am just not seeing a lot of Sharps models
that include a sling, even the Military carbines. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2015, 09:08:29 AM »
Bruce,

Within the Sporting style Rifles, sling swivels were not what I would consider common.
This seems to be an option that the owner could have added or had added at almost anytime.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline Major 2

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when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 10:02:34 AM »
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2015, 12:47:16 PM »
Bruce,

I know the Sharps model you are referring too in your last posting.
I have no clue as to what you mean by "on page one".
Page one of what are you referring too?
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2015, 04:32:55 PM »
Bruce,

I know the Sharps model you are referring too in your last posting.
I have no clue as to what you mean by "on page one".
Page one of what are you referring too?
My best,
 Blair

Oooopppsss..... nothing like being vague, right? I was referring to the first link that
Major provided. (http://www.lodgewood.com/SharpsSmithSpencer-Swivel-Base-Reproduction-for-Original_p_1277.html)

On the first page of that site, on the upper left, is a picture of a SHARPS referred to as an "Infantry model". Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Offline Blair

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2015, 12:36:05 PM »
Bruce,

How are you doing with your Jim Baker impression?
Anything on a Sharps rifle yet?
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline Bruce W Sims

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Re: Jim Baker, Indian Scout
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2015, 01:54:34 PM »
Last week I ran across a Hawkens Plains Rifle at a gun store for right around $600.  :-\

But I think I am holding out for an 1874 or 1877 Sharps...probably a Pedersoli or Lyman.

Haven't gotten beyond that. I'm pretty sure I will be making my own knife, though
a'la the picture I provided earlier. I've also been looking at botas but so far everything seems
just a bit too "Hollyweird". We'll see how it goes....

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

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