Author Topic: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?  (Read 3623 times)

Offline rifle

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Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« on: January 29, 2015, 12:22:05 PM »
Read a test that may be interesting to the Hombre's full of bravado and heroism shown in the thickets full of raging footballs with legs(javilina) and the dark forests full of middlin size eatin(freezer size) deer.

The 1860 Army(Taylors) tested with the ball and(smart commander of the illustrious cap&baller revolver) the lubed wad atop 30gr.Goex black and a 148gr. lead ball. The accuracy was crappy at 3.5 inch group at 15 yards(should be 3/4 inch or better) and......880 ft/sec velocity with muzzle energy 242ft/lbs. That load blasted thru 4 jug of water in a line-up.

Next tested was the 225gr. conical by Lee with a 2.25 inch group at 15 yards and 718 fps velosity and 258 ft/lbs energy. The water jugs it went thru and the amount of powder was not listed.

THEN......the Kaido Ojamaas custom hunting conical weighing 240gr. Loaded on 30gr. Goex it got 2.5 inch group at 15 yards and a 724 ft/sec velosity and muzzle energy of 280ft/lbs. Penetrated nine one gallon water jugs.

In the illustrious Ruger with a long barrel 14 inch mounted on it and the ball with 35gr.powder topped with the lubed wad had energy of 291 ft/lbs and velosity of 942ft/sec. The accuracy was a 2.5 inch at 15 yards and penetrated six water jugs.


The Lee conical  225gr. over 35gr. Goex got 897 ft/sec and 403ft/lbs. out of the long barreled Ruger Old Army and a nice 1.25 inch group. Penetrated seven water jugs.

The Ruger with the Kaido hunting conical fer the Ruger weighing 255gr. over compressed 35gr.powder got a average velosity of 804 ft/sec. and a energy of 367 ft/lbs. and bad accuracy of 3 inchs at 15 yards. The shot to shot varition with the overly compressed powder was 100ft/sec. and was said to contribute to the poor accuracy. So much fer the highly compressed powder crowd Folks that get good accuracy from high compression of the powder.  Makes ya wonder. Wonder why the discrepency. Compression not excessive can get less erratic loads. Over compression must be a no-no.
The highest vel. was 886ft/sec. (not a bad load with a 255gr. bullet) with a energy of 445 ft.lbs. and that bullet went thru all ten jugs and kept going. It was mentioned that RUGER chambers that are deepened to compress the powder less and have 10 more gr. of powdwr take just about any game the hunter wanted to take on.
One difference between the more authentic to the day round nose bullet and the Kaido hunting bullet is....the hunting bullet has a nice rather large FLAT to the nose.

I guess out of all the assumtions I could arrive at I'd have to say the conical takes the nod over the ball fer huntin bigger game and.......a lubed wad under the projectile and on the powder can get uniform loads.

SOOOOOOOO.....AnywhOOOOO...... I'd be thunkin bout usin the conical in the 1860 Army Colt on those fierce little Javilina and those middlin size deer.
I'd be giving it some real thunkin on taking a bigger gun like a Dragoon or Walker or even a Remington to take deer and use the conical if I got the accuracy with it. If not the guns with the bigger powder capacity over the Army would be my choice with the ball. Ceptin I'd be wanting to use a nice flat nose heavier conical even in the Army Colt.
I'd put a flat to the Lee conical if I had to. I'd make a hole in a piece of metal and put the Lee conical in it and bump the nose to a uniform flat nose. A rather large flat nose.

Offline Roosterman

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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 12:51:52 PM »
That is some pretty incredibly crappy accuracy for an 1860 with a round ball. with that accuracy rate I wouldn't hunt anything. I have no experience with conicals in an 1860 as the RB has done everything I have wanted it to. I don't know about little piggys, but deer just aren't that  hard to kill if hit properly. I have seen deer poached with a 22lr years back and they seem to die with out hesitation with good shot placement......not that I'd recommend poaching or using a .22lr. Bottom line, I'd choose an accurate RB over a conical that isn't as accurate. Just me I suppose.
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Offline hellgate

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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 01:53:03 PM »
If the accuracy is marginal you might want to mike the chambers to see what their diameter is and compare it to the bore. Very often the chambers are undersized and the ball/bullet doesn't completely obturate to fill the riflings (especially if not using dead, soft lead). Reaming the chambers out to .450 or .452 and going to a .454 or .457 ball will markedly improve accuracy.
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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 05:06:13 AM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 06:39:08 PM »
Rifle;  Is the test that you refer to the one done by Bottom Dealing Mike, aka duelist1954? 
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Offline Dick Dastardly

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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 08:56:46 PM »
Hellgate is dead nuts on.  Most Italian clones have undersize chambers and they do benefit from having the chambers reamed to match the barrel.  I've seen this so often that I think it's standard policy for the Italians, probably because of legal issues.  Undersize chamber to bore means there's no way to build enough pressure to blow a gun up.

This is one reason the Ruger Old Armies are so much more accurate out of the box.

FWIW, I have a brace of Pietta 1860 open tops with Kirst Konverter cylinders.  Walt Kirst fit the cylinders to the guns himself.  Those guns are very accurate.  Of course, the Kirst Konverter cylinders match the bore perfectly.  I have the original Pietta C&B cylinders and they mike at .446 while the barrel slugs out at .454".

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Offline hellgate

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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 09:17:41 PM »
Geeze, DD,
Now I gotta go see the urologist for my dead nuts..........  Come to think of it, I DID have a vasectomy about 25 years ago, so I guess you are right.
"Frontiersman: the only category where you can shoot your wad and play with your balls while tweeking the nipples on a pair of 44s." Canada Bill

Since I have 14+ guns, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of Cap&Ball. Now, that's a COMPLIMENT!

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Offline rifle

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Re: Not again.....1860 Army fer huntin?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2015, 10:53:34 AM »
I  thought the same thing about how the accuracy may be affected by a factory undersize chambers and possibly an alignment problem not noticed. Maybe just a guy that's doin his best with bad eyes or sumpthin. (I was told by Val Forgett once a long time ago the Italians made the chambers a little under size to "accomodate subsequent shots fired with the black powder.) I see it as........ the under sized chambers thus balls would shoot better longer thru a loose bore when the loose bore got smaller from fouling.
Funny the conicals were more accurate outta the Army compared to the ball.  Anyway the author of the article didn't say anything about the chamber size compared to the groove size of the rifling.

The test I was lookin at was in a magazine. Guns of the Old West.

Anywhooooo....I put this  thread up to show the little differences in bullet weight and small difference in powder charge can have an affect almost out of proportion with the differences. Barrell length was one of the differences. Just to show it in case someone is interested in what can be gleaned from it ( the test I read about). One example is the 225gr. bullet compared to the 240gr. bullet in the Army Colt test.

The Ruger with the 255gr. bullet and the long barrel and 35gr. powder had a good bit more whomp toit then the Army with the ball.

That shows me that even if there are those that treasure their Army revolvers and trust them enough with good accuracy to kill game there is something better fer huntin the bigger game. Miore powder,more lead and more barrel.

Therefore if someone was not knowing what was best to use and they were not adhered to a certain gun they could pick a bigger gun from the get-go. The test could show that even a Remington that can carry a lil more powder would be better then the Army Colt. Not slightin the Army Colt since it's my favorite(I have more of them that I can keep track of the number of them)....just sayin.....

You Hombre here know it all already but there are "Newbies" out there that may read this stuff here and start off on the right foot huntin with a bigger gun........or start off with a smaller gun and not the finese of accuracy with it you Hombre have and shoot game just to watch it run away. A person without the neurosurgery precision some of you have with yer cap&ballers may do better with a bigger gun that may widden the bread basket so to speak.

Of course I'd be tellin a newbie wanting to hunt with a revolver of any kind that they should not do it till they can aim small and hit small in the center of the bread basket with 100% accuracy..........learn what 15,25,30 (or whatever)yards look like out in the field.
 
Anywhooooo.....I'd be thunkin hard about whether or not I'd be takin a shot at a BIG BUCK ,even if real close, with an Army revolver or as a matter of fact any cap&baller revolver. I'd be wishin I had my rifle.
A MIDDLIN SIZE deer I would shoot at if real close with an Army Colt that was accurate.......maybe....I thunk. I gotta stop thunkin and start thinking. :D

One thing to consider is that round balls can ricochet inside game. Had it happen. It was a 53cal. ball shooter rifle with 100gr. FFg powder and just short of 100 yards. The ball hit right by the edge of the shoulder on a side shot and came out the other side exactly like it went right thu. Thing is....the buck went down right on the spot and never even kicked his hind legs.

While field dressing it I noticed the spine above the enrty hole was broken badly. The ball went in and went straight up and broke the spine and came out looking like it went right through. Strange. 
I mentioned before I shot a big buck at 32 paces front on in the neck with a 45/70 barreled rifle (muzzleloader) and  75gr. FFg powder and a 500gr. bullet and the deer neck stopped the bullet right where it hit the bones of the neck. That's not about the ball but is an example of how tough a big buck can be .........and the little deer can be tough too. I find them dead after deer season and see some hard hits to them and they get away to die and be wasted.  Just sayin......

 

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