Colt clone SAA in 32-20 (32 WCF) - anybody have one? Uberti full or Jr. frame ?

[bedbugbilly]

Very rarely post on this forum other than the leather shop.  I don't shoot CAS - am just an "old fart" plinker and reloader. 

Anyway - I primarily load/shoot 38 spl, 38 Colt Short & 38 Colt Long

I've got a burr under my blanket to try a new cartridge - 32-20 (32 WCF).  My g-uncle was a factory rep for International Harvester in the late 1800s - traveled all over the mid-west and west selling and he had a "Belgium" copy of a Colt SA in 32-20.  I have had it for years along with the original holster and cartridge belt - it's pretty rough and rests in a "shadow box" on display these days.  I was thinking I might like to have a SA similar to it - just for the fun of it and because I like historic cartridges and what they go it.

So . . . I'm looking at a 4 3/4" barrel . . . Cimarron lists three - the Model P old model and the Model P pre-war - main difference in how the cylinder pin is held in.  They also list a 4 3/4 inch model in the smaller frame Model P Junior (plow handle) and the "Lightning".

Taylor only lists the "New Model Cattleman" (spring retained cylinder pin).

All are Uberti as far as I can tell.

My question finally - does anybody have and shoot any of these?  If so, your thoughts on them and the cartridge?  Also, whick in your opinion would be the way to go?  The regular frame size or the "Junior/Lightning" which is about 75% the size of the Cattleman style?

I've never shot a 32-20 so am wondering if the regular frame size is "overly heavy" and if the smaller Jr. size frame would be more comfortable to shoot?  Having never handled the Jr. size frame or Lightning, I have no way to compare it to the feel/heft of a S & W K frame 32-20 which I have handled.

All I shoot is "cast" and I load in both smokeless and black powder.  The 32-20 I end up with will primarily be used for "fun shooting" - punching paper, killing cans, clay pigeons, etc. at anywhere from 25 to 50 yards and maybe a varmint once in a while if I could get a woodchuck to stand still long enough.

Your thoughts, suggestions, advice would greatly be appreciated.

I have sever Uberits - my '51 Navy and recently purchased a .357 Bisley which I like very much so I'm familiar with Ubertis - have shot for 50 + years.

Thanks for any help!

[Coffinmaker]

32-20 is a really fun cartridge.  It's great for "small" game, light recoil makes it great for plinking.  Primary draw-back is it's bottle neck case.  Taks a little practice to hand load well.  I really like 32-20.
Now, the guns.  The Cimarron Model P Jr. and Loghtning are intended for the younger shooters or ladies with smaller hands.  Most guys find them uncomfortable small.  I personally find the guns to be a little light and tend to wander around out at the end of my arm.
The Cimarron Model P is basically a copy of the Colt SAA.  Whether you prefer the screw to retain the base pin or the cross frame latch is personal preference.  They both work.  The .32 bore and cylinder are heavier than a .38 or .45 and I personally like that.  For me the extra weight soaks up recoil and really turns the 32-20 into a pussy cat. 
I think you'd really like a 4 3/4 Model P in 32-20.

Coffinmaker

[yahoody]

We've been shooting 32-20 in our family off and on for 3 generations, may be four.

Started with a 4 3/4 1st gen smokeless Colt, then a '92.  Now we have a few '92s and  even more clones in 32-20.  As Coffin maker mentioned case can be a little fragile but once you make the effort it is easy enough to sort out.  Starline makes the best brass IMO.  You really don't want to mix brass while reloading.  OAL on the case is critical to saving brass.  And sure you'll lose some brass but it isn't much generally.  I only shoot smokeless through ours now.  But what GREAT guns and caliber!

Never thought I would like the added weight of the guns in 4 3/4" compared to a .45.  But they are so pleasant and easy to shoot.  By far my favorite guns as shooters.  Helps that they are exceptionally accurate as well.   Elmer Keith's first hand gun, "Old Pop" was a 32-20 SAA with a 7.5" barrel.

I'd encourage you to buy a full size SAA in any form.  I find the newer cross pin frames easier to clean and maintain.  But like the looks of the older BP frames more.   Don't be surprised if you need to cut down the front sight some on a 32-20 unless things have changed and they are using the proper height front sight @ the factory.   You're burning day light now



More here on the 32-20:

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2014/09/old-pop.html

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2014/08/blog-post.html

 

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[Abilene]

I shoot my brother's 1st Gen 32-20 Colt made in 1915.  It is a long-flute model which would make it more valuable except someone reblued the whole gun long ago and the bore is pretty rough.  I shoot it a couple matches a year.  And 2 years ago I added a 32-20 deluxe '73 which I love.

Note that the lightning / model P Jr. guns in .32 are dual-cylinder guns with a .32 mag cylinder as wel as 32-20.  If you are planning on using both cylinders, fine, but you will be paying more than a single cylinder gun.  My hands are not large and the smaller frame guns fit me well and if I came across a deal on a used one I might buy it, but the smaller frame guns are also more difficult to get a really smooth action than the full size.

Note also that although Cimarron and Taylors list the guns, they are not likely to be in stock and will likely need to be backordered.

[jimbobborg]

I have one of the old models with the screw holding the cylinder pin in.  It is full sized.  5 1/2" barrel makes smokeless recoil a joke, 1 cc of BP feels like I'm shooting something.  I have another 32-20 from ASM, needs work now.  BTW, Taylor's does not currently have any 32-20s in stock, they are getting more in their next shipment from Italy. 

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you all - I greatly appreciate the information and suggestions - very helpful!

I've decided that I will go with the full frame size (P) as it just makes good sense to me.  I'm used to shooting a New Vaquero and a Uberti Bisley and I can't really see switching to the junior frame size when I think the balance that I'm used to would be better as well as less muzzle waiver on the heavier frame.

I was able to pick up a NIB set of RCBS 32-20 "cowboy dies" at a really good price - much less than retail.  A fellow had them and never used them - was eager to get rid of them so at least they'll be pretty to look at when I'm using them!   

I already have a couple of molds that will work fine in that cartridge - one is an original Winchester mold - not a pristine cavity but does drop a decent bullet.  I've lined up some 1 X fired brass from a fellow who is willing to help me out in getting set-up to load. 

Now . . to locate a pistol!  I'm going to look out here in Tucson to see if I can find a used or new one anywhere and if not, I'll call back to MI to the LGS that I use and have them put an order in - might be backordered but at least I'll be on the list!

I have two goals for 2015 - the 32-20 and the other getting set up for 45 Colt.  I've put the 45 off for too many years - not getting any younger and it's on my "bucket list"!  That one will be a Uberti SAA for sure.

Thanks again for the help and information - it's greatly appreciated!  Smooth trails to you all!   

[mehavey]

For the 32-20/Cattleman Search Engines:

See http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583199

[yahoody]

Nice shooting Mehavey!



We have just one pair of 32-20s now but still have 3 rifles.  2 Brownings and a Uberti '73.  But my first rifle in 32-20 was a long barreled Marlin '94 built in 1900.  32-20 is easy to load and fun to shoot in every gun we have had.  All of them have been exceptionally accurate.

http://pistolsmith.blogspot.com/2015/05/1873-deluxe-rifle-in-32-wcf.html

Still a huge fan of the 32-20.

You asked on TFL about 30 Carbine loads?  Answer is yes.  The 115gr leads will shoot right through small white tails with ease.  And make head shots  easy.  No go in the hand guns however from primer flow.  Check out "Winchester Lever Legacy" by Clyde "Snooky" Williamson for some great rifle loads.

[mehavey]

32-20 is easy to load...

Absolutely/Right on...
All this bunk about "difficult thin-necked" 32-20/44-40 reloading is pure bunk.
They both load exactly the same as any other cast-bullet cartridge using standard expander/correct minimal flare technique.

[Major 2]

Absolutely/Right on...
All this bunk about "difficult thin-necked" 32-20/44-40 reloading is pure bunk.
They both load exactly the same as any other cast-bullet cartridge using standard expander/correct minimal flare technique.

+ 2  .... I load 32-20 ,  I was ignorant to any claim they were difficult to reload, so I just did do    

Plan to add a 32-20  73  when the planets align 

[RRio]

Very rarely post on this forum other than the leather shop.  I don't shoot CAS - am just an "old fart" plinker and reloader.  

Anyway - I primarily load/shoot 38 spl, 38 Colt Short & 38 Colt Long

I've got a burr under my blanket to try a new cartridge - 32-20 (32 WCF).  My g-uncle was a factory rep for International Harvester in the late 1800s - traveled all over the mid-west and west selling and he had a "Belgium" copy of a Colt SA in 32-20.  I have had it for years along with the original holster and cartridge belt - it's pretty rough and rests in a "shadow box" on display these days.  I was thinking I might like to have a SA similar to it - just for the fun of it and because I like historic cartridges and what they go it.

So . . . I'm looking at a 4 3/4" barrel . . . Cimarron lists three - the Model P old model and the Model P pre-war - main difference in how the cylinder pin is held in.  They also list a 4 3/4 inch model in the smaller frame Model P Junior (plow handle) and the "Lightning".

Taylor only lists the "New Model Cattleman" (spring retained cylinder pin).

All are Uberti as far as I can tell.

My question finally - does anybody have and shoot any of these?  If so, your thoughts on them and the cartridge?  Also, whick in your opinion would be the way to go?  The regular frame size or the "Junior/Lightning" which is about 75% the size of the Cattleman style?

I've never shot a 32-20 so am wondering if the regular frame size is "overly heavy" and if the smaller Jr. size frame would be more comfortable to shoot?  Having never handled the Jr. size frame or Lightning, I have no way to compare it to the feel/heft of a S & W K frame 32-20 which I have handled.

All I shoot is "cast" and I load in both smokeless and black powder.  The 32-20 I end up with will primarily be used for "fun shooting" - punching paper, killing cans, clay pigeons, etc. at anywhere from 25 to 50 yards and maybe a varmint once in a while if I could get a woodchuck to stand still long enough.

Your thoughts, suggestions, advice would greatly be appreciated.

I have sever Uberits - my '51 Navy and recently purchased a .357 Bisley which I like very much so I'm familiar with Ubertis - have shot for 50 + years.

Thanks for any help!

Try this link:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Firearms_Buffalo_Arms_Company_it-158942.aspx?CAT=3931

The Cimarron Lightning is 7/8's the size of a SAA, and  even with my stout .38 Spl loads, my Lightning is a pleasure to shoot. So, I believe the .32-30 would be a sweetheart round for the Lightning. 

[yahoody]

There is one caveat I would point out on to allow one the enjoyment of reloading 32-20.  Really helps to have all the same brand of brass.  OAL is  important on the 32-20 for a decent crimp or the ugly rumor of thin necks and crushed cases will become reality

[Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to Yahoody!!  Or, maybe TWO.  Couple of Lustrum ago, my primary CAS SAs were a pair of Cimarron/Uberti "Thunderer" in 32-20.  All the nice options, they were Nickel, Flashy Faux Ivory stocks, Tuned to a gnats patuti.  Shot a whole lot better than I did.  I mention all this useless trivia, because one Saturday at a match a fella walked up with a fist full of folding money and asked If I'd sell em.  You know the rest of the story.  Anyway ........

When your whacking away on a progressive press with your brain in neutral and your arm and hand on autopilot, if your case length doesn't match, you can wind up with a whole bunch of real funny looking cartridges that won't fit in anything (Do not ask how I know this FACT).  START OUT WITH A NICE NEW BAG OF STARLINE!!

Coffinmaker

[Abilene]

There is one caveat I would point out on to allow one the enjoyment of reloading 32-20.  Really helps to have all the same brand of brass.  OAL is  important on the 32-20 for a decent crimp or the ugly rumor of thin necks and crushed cases will become reality

In particular, R-P brass is longer than Starline or Winchester.  I picked up 1000 new R-P from Pettifogger last year (or was it the year before?) and am just about to break into it.  I am going to load smokeless only in those new ones, and have started loading BP only in all my older brass, which is mixed.  I don't care if the bullet is crimped a bit below the groove in the shorter Starline brass because the full case of BP won't let the bullet go any deeper.

I load mine on a Lee Turret and very rarely have any problem with crushed mouths.

[yahoody]

Suspect the crimp only matters to us that are shooting smokeless in the lever guns.  Without a good crimp placed where it belongs on the bullet,  under mag spring tension and even the mild recoil the bullet will end up well inside the case.  That happens and the lever guns will rarely feed with any sort of reliability.  '92s lifters are worse than the '73's elevator or Marin '94 for feeding crap ammo.

Sort your brass and everything seems to run fine once the dies are adjusted correctly for OA case length.
I finally just gave away my Remington brass.  It is just too dang long.   Big fan of Starline brass myself.     

[Major 2]

PLUS ONE to Yahoody!!  Or, maybe TWO.  Couple of Lustrum ago, my primary CAS SAs were a pair of Cimarron/Uberti "Thunderer" in 32-20.  All the nice options, they were Nickel, Flashy Faux Ivory stocks, Tuned to a gnats patuti.  Shot a whole lot better than I did.  I mention all this useless trivia, because one Saturday at a match a fella walked up with a fist full of folding money and asked If I'd sell em.  You know the rest of the story.  Anyway ........

When your whacking away on a progressive press with your brain in neutral and your arm and hand on autopilot, if your case length doesn't match, you can wind up with a whole bunch of real funny looking cartridges that won't fit in anything (Do not ask how I know this FACT).  START OUT WITH A NICE NEW BAG OF STARLINE!!

Coffinmaker

Here is where I bow to the wise sage....

all I have is Starline brass (32-20 ) and a Lyman Turret 2.... slow & slower is my speed , oblivious to opp's  thus far

[Coffinmaker]

SPEAKING OF 32-20!!!  .  This be a HEADS UP ........ of sorts.

There is a PAIR of Drop Dead Gorgeous 5 1/2 inch 32-20 SAs for sale over on the "other" forum in the Classifieds.  Engraving and Blue finish to DIE for.  2 grand.  Two Grand for the PAIR.  There is a Caveat though.  The guns are "Hartford Models."  Hartfords were at one time the lead handguns for EMF.  The Hartfords were manufactured by Armi San Marco.  Manufacturers with the worst quality control on the PLANET.  Armi San Marco SAs were the closest copies of a Colt ever made by anybody anywhere.  If you got a good one, they were SWEET.  If you got a bad one ....... you were screwed.

SO:  If your interest is directed toward a Stop Traffic Good Looking Pair of guns and you like playing Roulette or shooting Kraps, go take a peek.

Coffinmaker

[Blackpowder Burn]

Just a quick comment on the crimping issue..............I use a Lee factory crimp die, so slight case length variation isn't an issue.

The 32-20 has become by far my favorite cartridge.  I was fortunate to come across a pair of Cimarron 4-3/4" Model P's last year.  I would periodically stop by their Texas Jacks's store in Fredericksburg and always checked to see if any had come in from across the pond.  The store manager said they had a pair coming, but had been ordered by a gent and were taken.  After about a year+ I stopped in one day to browse.  The manager came over to me and said "Aren't you the guy looking for a pair of 32-20's?"  I indicated in the affirmative, and he then said "That pair that was ordered came in, and we can't find the guy that ordered them.  You want 'em?"  To which I said "Hell yes!" and whipped out my wallet.

I also have a Colt built in 1903 and an original 28" barreled Winchester 92.  All are great shooters with BP.

[Cliff Fendley]

The Lee Factory Crimp die is the trick for 32 or 44wcf. Don't worry about crimping with the seater die and crimp in a final stage with the LFC die.