Start using heavy lace as decoration on holsters and gun leather?

[Willie Dixon]

Greetings all,

I was wondering if y'all might be of assistance.

I'm wondering when the Mexican basket weave and round braids, and those type of things were starting to be used in the Southwest? 

I know the Vaquero's partial history, and their love of braiding rawhide, so I'm thinking it was fairly early in the development of waist pistols.  I just can't say for sure.

Basically, I'm thinking along the lines of these:


I love that stitch, and would love a shoulder holster rig with it, which already puts me in the late 1870s, early 1880s for something like NCOWS, or more importantly my living history demonstrations... but in those I'm not going to be "heeled" anyways  as the horse will be the star of the show, not my Colts.

I'm also wondering about this decorative lacing stitched into this holster:


I'm thinking it's way later, but I just had to post it because it's drop dead gorgeous.

[Camano Ridge]

Not sure, on the lacing and braiding on holsters. I don't realy remember seeing any examples in museums that I have been to of braided or laced holsters prior to 1900's and did not find examples of any in the several books I have. It would seem reasonable that if a cowboy or vaquero had failure of the stitching on a holster they may have used raw hide lacing to hold the holster together.

THe embroidery on holsters took place earlier then you think. Page 87 of Packing Iron shows a thread embroidered holster 1860 - 1870. I seen and embroidered civil war holsters at one of the museums I have been to, I can't remember if it was at Gettysburgh or not.

Chuck Burrows might have some insight on the lacing.

[St. George]

Rawhide was the 'go-to' item for repairs and lashings and pretty much everything, and naturally it found great use in lacing things together - often quite decoratively.

Saddlers did it in the process of building their saddles and tack - and holsters - cowboys did it to while away time when in camp or in winter, as they repaired various things, because once set, it wore like iron.

Not much of a stretch to find it on holsters - like the commercial one seen below, that resembles a late Heiser.

The Mexican holster pictured below features a style called 'Piteado' - the 'lace' being made from cactus fibers.

It decorated all manner of things, from the 'sombrero grande' to vests and horse trappings and anything else a vaquero or gentleman wore, and its use goes 'way' back into the real Old West, when men like them showed Americans how to 'cowboy'...

Go ahead - 'you' tell him it's 'lace'...

Scouts Out!

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[Willie Dixon]

wow!  thank you so much for your guys' help in this!

after my thread over in the historical society section kinda didn't get any replies yet, plenty of views mind you, I was nervous lol.

Honestly, the views are enough for that thread worst case, I can handle my own research, and the was I saw it was "well, guess they're as stumped as I am at the moment."

but man, I can not wait to look into "piteado" now.  Thanks for that keyword!  I saw that holster and literally went "yep, that's my saddle and leather stuff - now to see if it's legit."

Thanks again for the help guys.  I'll probably start posting here when I eventually get the leather to get started.  I hand stitched my own medieval garb (down to the style of stitch used in the 13th century), and my lady has done black-work and Elizabethan embroidery.  She even told me "yep, would love to do that."

speaking of that style of stitch... you say it was used on quite alot.  I'm wondering if I may be able to use it on my clothing too?

is that what some of this could be?



Technically, it can belong here.  I'm thinking three sets of clothing:
working
semi-dress
dress

I'm thinking the working will be a mixture of garments of muslin, cotton, and wool
semi-dress will have the leather like in James Walker's paintings, hence why I think I can post it here, kind of like this:

dress will be in pure deep blue velvet, with gold lace... not going to lie, by Guy William's version of Don Diego de la Vega is inspiring that one a bit, probably too much.

I'll post more on this in my other thread.

again, thanks guys!

if anyone has pictures of the earlier holsters with the Piteado stitch, that'd be awesome to actually see the style from in period to use as a reference for mine.  I'll see what I can find as well of course!

[Camano Ridge]

Willie, here are a couple of periodholsters (1800's) all thoe it is a little hard to see they are both supposed to Piteado. I have seen other pictures of the bikini flap or half flap holsters however they are alway refered to by modern authors a s bikini holster doubt that is what they were originaly called. Also here is an article on Piteado you might be interested in. http://mexicocooks.typepad.com/mexico_cooks/2007/06/its-sunday-morn.html

Here is a link that may interest you as well, I would scroll through all three pages also you may find som of the links in posts by LLoyd to be interesting . You may want to use google translator on some of the text. http://wabilene.forumgratuit.org/t1254p15-early-mexicano-tejano-californio

[Willie Dixon]

Thanks so much for those links! It's appreciated.  Love the pictures,  it can see the piteado especially on the first one.

Merry Christmas pard!

[Slowhand Bob]

Guys, I really love a nice set of holsters BUT I must admit that in this case it is the clothing that grabbed my attention.  Willie, those are about the best looking Vaquero (or whatever Mexican style) clothes I have seen yet.  Even with all of the adornment, they still would look natural on a well heeled rider.  I really wish I could lose forty pounds and then find a suit as nice as the bottom one.

[Willie Dixon]

Hey Bob,

thanks for that.  I found some antique clothing online via google, using the correct Spanish terms really helps out.  The outfit on bottom is by RiverCrossingInc: http://rivercrossinginc.tripod.com/vaquero.html yeah, the jacket alone is just under $1000, so who knows for the whole set.  for that price, it had better be good!

I talk about the clothing in a different thread:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,53958.0.html

basically, the jackets and quite a lot else could have been made in leather, or other materials such as wool and heavy  weight (canvas type works well now) cotton/linen

[Slowhand Bob]

WOW, I really love these but fear that I do not have the fortune to wear on my back!  I actually accumulated a couple of the old commercially available patterns for the Vaquero  pants and jackets but never could afford the quotes I received for making a suit from them anyway.     Do not forget to take a look at the pair of early California holsters for the 1849 pistols that has been shown here several times in recent years.  I am pretty sure that the photo came out of PACKING IRON and in my mind comes as close to looking like a two gun pistoleers rig as anything I could imagine and it is right out of the 1850s (bonafideez)!  This pair of holsters could be done much easier if the proper metal toe plugs could be made.   

[Willie Dixon]

Bob,

I know how you feel.  Luckily, my gal and I can handle patterns and a sewing machine pretty well.  It's about the only thing that'll save me on $$.  I'm looking forward to doing the leather work, something new for me.  I've worked in steel, wood, and cloth, just not leather yet.  So this will be fun!  I'm debating on what to make first actually.

what do you guys think?

botas de alas
shoulder holsters
gloves/gauntlets

which one do you think would be a good starter in leather-work?

I'm actually thinking the botas de alas would be best, but I'm intimidated by the amount of leather used.  I'll be following Mr. Burrow's patterns basically:


or the shoulder-rig

again by Mr. Burrows, I believe based in "Packing Iron."

for the holster, I want to make a single first, based on extant examples, to then try and figure out a double style.

[Slowhand Bob]

Leggins or botas have been the easiest of what I have made and with the materials I was Using, they were the cheapest.  It must be admitted that I have never tried making gloves or mitts before.  Well I better get busy, we are in the preparation stages of moving and the wife is definitely in the hurry-up mode!

[Massive]

The top holster reminds me more of Heiser's work.  That would be post war, and the lacing is Kangaroo from what I read.  Never been able to find anything quite like it, which is OK, since I don' know who would buy one from me.  At the moment there are several for sale on Ebay, prices up to 2300, but you can get an idea of what was for sale when they were in business.

[St. George]

The top holster is a Heiser - or an excellent period copy of one - it'll date well into the '40's and shows up in the Heiser catalogs.

It looks to have had its safety strap replaced.

Scouts Out!