Author Topic: headstamp for pistol cartridges  (Read 5721 times)

Offline matt45

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headstamp for pistol cartridges
« on: October 07, 2014, 01:18:54 PM »
hello the camp.
     As I was wandering around the other day, I began to wonder if the Army had the cases for it's ammo headstamped during the frontier era, and specifically what might the headstamp have been for the 45 ammo?  ???

Offline FriscoCounty

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2014, 01:45:02 PM »
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Offline Blair

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2014, 02:25:26 PM »
matt45.

I have two 45 S&W rounds in my collection.
1. is an inside primed copper case. No head stamp. (this is of the oldest variation)
2. is a Frankford Arsenal (FA), externally primed Center fire, that states it is "45 Colt" dated '98, but is in the .45 S&W length.
Just a couple of other variations for you.
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 Blair
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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #3 on: Today at 05:56:24 AM »

JohnsonBarr

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 02:55:27 PM »
Hey Blair, I have found references to a 19th Century .45 Government cartridge. Essentially the cartridge was built to the length of a .45 S&W Schoefield and powder charge with a .45 Colt rim diameter. This loading would work in both the top break Schoefield and the SAA. Well sorta; Colt rims had a bad tendency to slip past the ejector star on the Schoefield. Even with S&W cartridges this was a problem. Muzzle up boys, then unlock yer pistol!

Offline Blair

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 03:27:28 PM »
JohnsonBarr.

You are very correct.
There is a very good reason why S&W (Winchester also) chose not to produce their firearms in a .45 LC.
It has to do with the rather small rim dia. of the Colt designed cartridge and the problems it could cause with the extraction of the spent case.
S&W was also concerned with the OAL of the Colt cartridge and how they would have to increase the length of the Cylinder, frame and barrel extension to accommodate this.
Even after S&W goes to this extension within the "Frontier" models SA and DA revolvers (long Cylinder), S&W does not adopt their top break revolvers to use .45 Colt ammo... in any model type variant!
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Offline matt45

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2014, 01:43:19 PM »
 ;D thanks, Gentlemen
     That gets to the nub of my pondering- that is if the Gov't ever listed both the 45 S&W and the 45 Colt as the same, irregardless of the length.

Offline St. George

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2014, 03:30:52 PM »
No.

After 1874, all 'Revolver, Ball Cartridges' manufactured by Frankford Arsenal for issue were the length of the Schofield round.

There was no confusion - Army Ordnance knew what they were about and issued one single round for both Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers and did so until the single action revolver was phased out of active Service.

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Offline matt45

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 03:30:48 PM »
Roger on that- from previous threads I knew that tales of confusion were much overblown.  I was just wondering how the Army referred to its pistol round, and if the headstamps still called the round '45 colt'.  Doesn't matter much, just was pondering whilst wandering

Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2014, 06:07:18 PM »
Howdy

According to Kuhnhausen's Colt Single Action Revolvers Handbook, a Shop Manual, the Army designation for the 45 Colt cartridge was Colt's Revolver Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1873. Here is a photo of a box of ammo I bought last year. In case you can't make it out, it was manufactured in 1874.





These are Benet primed rounds. They look like rimfire, but they are not, they are centerfire. As you can see, they have no headstamp. You will also notice these are the reduced power 30 grain loads, not 40 grain. They probably have cardboard wads inside them to take up the empty space, but I am not going to take one apart to find out. The round at the far right is a modern round for comparison. Yes, these rounds have tiny rims, and would never have functioned in a rifle.





According to Kuhnhausen the Schofield round was designated Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875. 1875 was the first year of production of the Schofield revolver. Unfortunately I do not have any antique Schofield rounds in my collection to photograph.


Here is a photo of a bunch of old 45 Colt rounds in my cartridge collection. The one all the way on the left is modern, for comparison. Most of these rounds have relatively small diameter rims. But notice the round all the way on the right. This one has an extra wide rim, about .540 in diameter, far larger than the current standard of .512. I believe this round was made for the Colt New Service double action revolver, adopted by the Army in 1909. The wide rim was so the extractor of the New Service revolver could extract the round.





Here is a photo of the headstamp of the round. FA stands for Frankford Arsenal, 12 13 is the date code meaning the round was manufactured in December of 1913.



I just checked, and the round does indeed chamber in my New Service revolver and the extractor grabs the wide rim.

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Offline matt45

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Re: headstamp for pistol cartridges
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2014, 05:53:59 PM »
very interesting- thanks

 

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