Gun in fire safe to shoot?

[Mean Bob Mean]

So, perusing the cowboy action related firearms in Gunbroker and found this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=435895569#PIC

An 1876 that was damaged so badly in a fire they had to reblue it all (the case hardening is gone) and restock it.  They claim it is a perfectly fine shooter.  I wrote them and said I doubt any firearm in a structure fire is safe to shoot again.  What do you all say?

[Pettifogger]

So, perusing the cowboy action related firearms in Gunbroker and found this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=435895569#PIC

An 1876 that was damaged so badly in a fire they had to reblue it all (the case hardening is gone) and restock it.  They claim it is a perfectly fine shooter.  I wrote them and said I doubt any firearm in a structure fire is safe to shoot again.  What do you all say?

It's a modern reproduction so I wouldn't mess with it.  If it got hot enough to burn off the stock the metal heat treating will be suspect.  The rounds for the 76 are low pressure, but why buy a potential problem.

[Mean Bob Mean]

The rounds for the 76 are low pressure, but why buy a potential problem.

My feeling exactly.  I think some guy might buy this and thinking "it's a modern make" jack the round up and hurt himself. 

[Advertising]

[rifle]

I was  a fireman fer a city in Ohio fer awhile.

I saw at house fires where a coffee cup sitting on a table would be melted while the table may be scorched black it was still structurally sound.

Same with a blackened interior of a house with the windows on the floor rolled up like a tube and not broken.

Heat like that ...that can melt glass would mess with the metal hardening of a gun. If too far over the critical temp of the metal the structure of the metal would be compromised with it's latice or cystaline structure changed.

I've seen guns with the wood blackened but not burned off that a gunsmith was refinishing and said the metal would be alright.I didn't believe him.

There is a anomaly where after metal is heated to the critical temp(cherry red) and then tempered back so as to not be brittle and tempered at between 500 and 700 degrees the "500 degree enbrittlment" takes place.

No one knows why the heated metal goes brittle when normally the tempering resoftens the metsl to some degree. It's just known it happens. So.....if a gun is in a fire where the temp heats it to 500 degrees it gets brittle. The embrittlement happens from 500-700 degrees.  When gun metal is hardened by heating to the critical temp cherry red and quenched it has to be tempered or drawn back with a temp below 500 of over 700 degrees so it gets less brittle and thus "tough" other wise it goes back to brittle..

That means there is a real good chance the guns in a fire are actually made brittle by the heat and not softer.

A gunsmith I talked to that does casehardening and tempering back tempers at 375 degrees fer a coupla hours after the quench.

I know of a well known casehardening expert that does not temper the metal back at all after the casehardening quench. That expert must get the colors with a low temp around 400 degrees,or some such thing, to avoid the tempering after the quench. How a smith can color case without tempering is beyond me.

[Billy Bristol]

Heat treating and tempering temperatures all depend on the type of metal being heat treated. As a toolmaker I have worked with many different alloys that received heat treatments. I have seen people not temper some materials long enough and others too long. both causing different problems. The temperature alone is not always the only factor for heat treatment. The length of time it was at that temperature is important as well. Then there is also the cooling. Some materials get quenched while other need to cool slowly before tempering.

I would never trust a firearm that was in a fire.

[Mean Bob Mean]

I would never trust a firearm that was in a fire.

That was my feeling, he sold it but I thought he was nuts to offer it. 

[Blackpowder Burn]

I have a friend that recently had his house burned down and all of his guns were stored openly - no safe.  He brought me a pair of USFA Rodeo's that had been through the fire.  My first thought was "there is no way in h** that these guns can be saved".  They were nothing but a ball of combustion products and rust.  After a couple of trips through an ultrasonic cleaner I was able to get them disassembled, then had another friend glass bead blast them.

They looked good at that point, but I was very concerned over metal structure, etc. as y'all have discussed.  The friend then took them to Alan Harton in Houston for examination.  After a thorough exam, hardness testing, etc. they were deemed safe to shoot.  He had them reblued and is using them today.  I never woulda' thunk it................

[Billy Bristol]

I have a friend that recently had his house burned down and all of his guns were stored openly - no safe.  He brought me a pair of USFA Rodeo's that had been through the fire.  My first thought was "there is no way in h** that these guns can be saved".  They were nothing but a ball of combustion products and rust.  After a couple of trips through an ultrasonic cleaner I was able to get them disassembled, then had another friend glass bead blast them.

They looked good at that point, but I was very concerned over metal structure, etc. as y'all have discussed.  The friend then took them to Alan Harton in Houston for examination.  After a thorough exam, hardness testing, etc. they were deemed safe to shoot.  He had them reblued and is using them today.  I never woulda' thunk it................

At least you had the metal tested. But unless I knew it was done by someone competent I would not trust it. I do know Alan is very competent and have heard very good things about him.

[Blackpowder Burn]

I'd trust a gun that Alan said was OK.  Unless I knew a gun in a similar condition was tested by someone equally competent...........NO!

[Cliff Fendley]

I was  a fireman fer a city in Ohio fer awhile.

I saw at house fires where a coffee cup sitting on a table would be melted while the table may be scorched black it was still structurally sound.

Same with a blackened interior of a house with the windows on the floor rolled up like a tube and not broken.

Heat like that ...that can melt glass would mess with the metal hardening of a gun. If too far over the critical temp of the metal the structure of the metal would be compromised with it's latice or cystaline structure changed.

I've seen guns with the wood blackened but not burned off that a gunsmith was refinishing and said the metal would be alright.I didn't believe him.

There is a anomaly where after metal is heated to the critical temp(cherry red) and then tempered back so as to not be brittle and tempered at between 500 and 700 degrees the "500 degree enbrittlment" takes place.

No one knows why the heated metal goes brittle when normally the tempering resoftens the metsl to some degree. It's just known it happens. So.....if a gun is in a fire where the temp heats it to 500 degrees it gets brittle. The embrittlement happens from 500-700 degrees.  When gun metal is hardened by heating to the critical temp cherry red and quenched it has to be tempered or drawn back with a temp below 500 of over 700 degrees so it gets less brittle and thus "tough" other wise it goes back to brittle..

That means there is a real good chance the guns in a fire are actually made brittle by the heat and not softer.

A gunsmith I talked to that does casehardening and tempering back tempers at 375 degrees fer a coupla hours after the quench.

I know of a well known casehardening expert that does not temper the metal back at all after the casehardening quench. That expert must get the colors with a low temp around 400 degrees,or some such thing, to avoid the tempering after the quench. How a smith can color case without tempering is beyond me.

Most steels have an austenizing temps of well over 1000 (closer to 1500). I wouldn't think 5-700 degrees will make one more brittle but rather softer. Example 4140 steel often used in gun barrels is typically hardened by heating to 1600 and quenched in oil.

Maybe in the 5-700 range if it were quenched with water in the fire you could get some case/surface hardening and possible some microscopic cracks in the surface which might allow for it to crack later. That is just a thought but it doesn't make sense to get actual hardening throughout the piece at those temps you mention.