45-70 Load Capacity

[Hambone Dave]

I am always hearing that folks get lots of powder shook down as a settled load in a 45-70.

I am unable to do so. Here are some exacts based on a 2.035 internal case length. Overpowder wad of .030, .10 grease cookie and finally .570 of a seated 405gr LFN bullet. That leaves only 1.335" of space for the powder. Using 2Fg I can't get anywhere near the loads folks claim to achieve.

If I went to the 500+ bullets, I'll will have even less powder space.

How does everyone else do it. Your advice would be appreciated.

[FriscoCounty]

What's this grease cookie and over powder what you speak of? 

The .45-70-405 was designed to hold 70 grains of BP in a balloon head case with a 405 grain bullet.  You will lose capacity using solid head cases (which you do want to use).  I figure on losing 5 grains of capacity from that.  Using the heavier 500 grain bullet vs the 405 will reduce capacity.  You can figure on another 5+ grains of capacity. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The Darksiders Den and BROW are where you will learn the answers to your question. Read as much as you can, and by&by all will be revealed.

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[Kent Shootwell]

I use a drop tube and a compression die to seat a .030 wad and a 522 grain bullet. In this photo is that load and to the left is an example of a 500 grain bullet loaded over 70 grains. A lot of helpful books will guide you threw the process.

[Ranch 13]

Scrap the grease cookie, it's not need with any decent grease groove bullet combined with a good blackpowder bullet lube. BSC lube from www.bigskycastbullets.com is winning some big matches and making a good impression since it was introduced recently.
If you slow pour thru your regular powder funnel it's no big deal to drop 70-75 grs of 2f into a 45-70 case. Then you simply use a compression die of some sort to compress the powder to a depth that will allow the bullet to seat firmly on the fiber wad on top of the powder.
 There are literally thousands of round sent down range every weekend at shooting matches from 45-70's loaded with bullets up to 540 grs on top of 70+ grs of blackpowder.

[rbertalotto]

With a single shot rifle, where cartridge length might not be an issue, you can leave a grease groove or two out of the case. This allows for more powder.

With a lever action in 45-70, and feeding from the magazine, you don't have this option. Getting 70g of BP into a 45-70 and maintaining SAMMI length with 500+g bullets is a real trick.

Some BP does not like lots of compression for best accuracy.  With 500-535g bullet, and even with leaving a grease grove out of the case, I have a hard time getting 65g of BP with good accuracy. With Goex powder, if I compress too much, accuracy goes out the window. With Swiss and Schutzen, I can compress much more and maintain accuracy.

I drop all powder through a 24" drop tube.

In my 38-55 I've been using 3F to get the velocity with 340g bullets that I need for 300 yds. I've not tried 3F in the 45-70 yet.

Have others used 3F in the 45-70?

[Grapeshot]

A Compression die is the way to go.  Just remember that you will have to use a Magnum Large Rifle Primer to get a full ignition of the compressed powder.  Also get Wolf's book, "Loading .45-70 Cartridges for the  Original Trapdoor Rifle and Carbine".

[WaddWatsonEllis]

HI,

That is some pretty powerful people giving you advice ... I think I would go with it!

TTFN,

[rbertalotto]

This idea of magnum primers is interesting.

I recently shot with a group of fellows that shoot very serious BPCR. Among this group were  a couple of national and regional champions. They had some great advise for a "newby" like me.

They all used pistol primers as they felt rifle primers upset the powder in the case too much. They were unanimous about not using magnum primers.

A few actually set the pistol primer through a piece of newsprint to slow down the flame front even more.

I had always read that BP needed magnum primers, but these folks were proving this theory wrong.

They were huge fans of heavy for caliber, soft alloy bullets with "SPG" lube.

Most were wiping with one wet and one dry patch between shots.  No one was using a blow tube.

All were using Swiss powder with lots of compression.

The accuracy these folks were shooting at 200 yds (longest distance available that day) was truly amazing!

[Ranch 13]

Most of the big name shooters in the bpcr world will tell you that compressing Swiss and Schuetzen is not a good thing to do. Regular Goex and the discontinued Cartridge and Express powders thrive on heavy compression. Their new Olde Eynsford powder seems to work the best with zero to about 3 tenths of an inch compression.
 Magnum primers will work , but those that are after the real accuracy with bpcr do so with large rifle primers and thin paper wads over the flasholes , or large pistol primers.
 Folks miss the point Wofe was trying to do when he did the magnum primer and drill out the flash holes , he was trying to replicate the amount of flame the old Berdan primers put into the powder charge. The part that he missed was those old berdan and even the first boxer primers were much weaker than the primers we now have available. The weaker primer thing is something also overlooked when the discussion turns to duplex loading. When duplex loading started it was using small charge of blackpowder under the smokeless powder as the primers of the early days of smokeless would not reliably ignite the smokeless.
 
 Compression die of some sort makes charging a 45-70 case with 70 + grs of 2f or even 1f blackpowder and seating 500+ gr bullets a snap. I use the "M" die to compress the powder and flare the case mouth at the same time when loading long range rounds using grease groove bullets in the 45-70.  If you don't compress 2f, you must go to 3f in order to achieve pit safety requirements for the 45-70 at many of the NRA bptr events. Also getting the velocity up above 1150 to insure bullet stability at ranges past 600 yds requires compression or finer granulation of powder.

[Frank V]

I know several people who shoot black powder cartrige shilouette & in the .45-70 they usually get about 65grs in a modern case with moderate powder compression. Most get about 1200fps with those loads & they will take down the 500 meter rams consistanlty. Some of them seat a 500-565gr bullet out of the case some using single shot rifles.
   I'll bet you could get say 60-65grs with a 405 seated normally?
Good luck let us know what you come up with.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   Find a copy of "Loading Cartridges for the .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine", by J.S. and Pat Wolf, sold by Wolf's Western Traders. While the info is for the Trapdoor Rifles & Carbines, it will give you a fantastic education on loading the .45-70 with Black Powder for ALL firearms. I consider this book to be indispensable for every .45-70 BP shooter out there, novice and 'seasoned'.

           Be Well!

                         M.T.Marfield

[St8LineLeatherSmith]

I am always hearing that folks get lots of powder shook down as a settled load in a 45-70.

I am unable to do so. Here are some exacts based on a 2.035 internal case length. Overpowder wad of .030, .10 grease cookie and finally .570 of a seated 405gr LFN bullet. That leaves only 1.335" of space for the powder. Using 2Fg I can't get anywhere near the loads folks claim to achieve.

If I went to the 500+ bullets, I'll will have even less powder space.

How does everyone else do it. Your advice would be appreciated.

not sure if it has been mentioned but fffG powder will have a faster burn rate than the ffG and will settle in a little tighter than ffG which will help increase pressure levels
 the guys using BP subs are getting higher pressure levels then there is always nitro loads but that aint the cowboy way

if you have a rifle that can handle modern loads get a box of Hornady 45-70 LEVERevolution and brace your self!
 

[Drydock]

In Fact Wolf does address the differing primer modern/vintage strengths in his book.  The point most folks miss is that Wolf was duplicating Milspec loading using a highly compressed powder charge.  Basically, the more compression, the stronger primer needed.  That and he was using Goex 2f, (again, to duplicate military loadings) which rewards high compression.  Using a lightly compressed load of Swiss, a pistol primer works very well indeed.

Wolfs book is a great starting point, and perhaps the best out there for the Trapdoor Springfield.  Just understand what he was trying to do, and be ready to experiment to find what YOUR rifle likes best.