winchester and navy arms 1873

[Cliff Fendley]

Pettifogger, did you look at the photo Major posted? That is a factory Miroku rifle, not the new Navy Arms, this was brought up among NCOWS members when the rifle was first introduced. The Miroku rifle DOES NOT have the same lever throw as the original 1873 Winchester or the stock Uberti.

That is not just a little bit of difference, it is a lot, about the same as the earlier short stroke kits that have been unapproved in NCOWS along with other factory short stroke rifles offered from Uberti/Beretta.

At this time the Miroku rifle is not approved for NCOWS use nor should it be. If we start allowing these things it opens up a whole can of worms as to where it all stops and gets away from the idea of authenticity that we strive for.

[Cliff Fendley]

Also it is not really true that the original Winchesters have a shorter stroke than a Uberti. I have laid them on top of each other and the Uberti is pretty much exact. Oddly enough after this has been brought up and I started comparing different rifles I have noticed ever so slight variances in the originals, probably from the machining and fitting tolerances and practices at the time. That said those differences are ever so slight and not more than a degree or two from one another and the Uberti rifles can be considered right within those slight variances I've witnessed on the originals.

[Pettifogger]

Yep, I've got a few originals and they all vary a bit.  I even have a very early 73 that does not have the trigger safety.  Has a one piece trigger like a 66.  Bottom line is the rules are the rules.  If that is what your rules require, then that's all that counts.

[Advertising]

[MJN77]

First off that is from the Navy Arms Website.

Which is what the OP posted and referred to. Try to keep up.

[MJN77]

I didn't realize I had to define "IF". As Pettifoger said there is NO mention of a "Winchester short stroke kit, pre-installed" on the Winchester website. Cliff, as near as I can tell was referring to Winchester rifles as they are manufactured, not after they have been modified and REDEFINED by another company. If you are going to condemn a rifle as not being "Authentic" by someones definition other than the manufacturer I guess that is your choice.
wM1

I'll say again, the short stroked rifle is what the OP posted and referred to. On the link that this thread is about it mentioned that the rifle in question IS short stroked. So in fact there is no IF. Also, can you point out where in this thread I said anything about being, or even mentioned the word "authentic"? I seem to be having trouble finding that post.

[Pettifogger]

Which is what the OP posted and referred to. Try to keep up.

This is a conversation.  You need to follow the conversation which drifted off to include Winchester 73s not just the Navy Arms version.  Most threads by the time there are two or three posts have drifted from what an OP asked or posted.  I talked to the project manager at Winchester (not Navy) and they do not consider the production guns short stroked.  They are building all they can sell and a short stroke is something they might offer in the future.  The after market has already started making short strokes for them.

[Mean Bob Mean]

What do you mean no more excuses,  as the Major explained the Miroku IS short stroked, their adds even say so.

No, the Winchesters are not short stroked, the Navy Arms rifles are.  Now, the only one I handled and from what everyone else is saying, they are extremely well made so out of the box require less tuning possibly which has led to all kinds of mythology about them coming short stroked and tuned, etc.

I think they are simply built to tighter engineering controls in Japan than in Italy.  Or that is to say, all the carping about 1000+ dollar guns that then need work is less of an issue here.  I am sure they are not all perfect, but I am betting they are built to a higher standard internally than are the Ubertis.  

I am also betting that comparing one original or one uberti to a new Winchester is likely not a valid statistical sampling.

The problem is that everyone is using the Uberti as the gold standard.  

[Pettifogger]

A little more information for those that are interested.  Miroku has two plants.  One is very small and has limited production facilities.  This is where they make all the Winchester "traditional" style rifles, e.g., the 73, 85, 86, 92 and 95s.  Total production at the plant is 6,000 guns per year for ALL models combined.  So, they aren't exactly pumping out a lot of any particular model.  If you see what you like you should probably pick it up as it might not come back around in the production cycle for a while.  They are nicely made and finished.  There are two things I don't like.  First, the stock carrier is cut to try and make the shells eject to the right.  This just makes it a little less positive for ejection.  Second, it has a safety built into the firing pin extension and an interlock to keep it from firing unless the trigger is pulled.  There are already after market solid firing pin extensions.  We have to remember the majority of these rifles are sold to people that aren't going to shoot them is CAS events, so they won't mind these two features.

[Cliff Fendley]

No, the Winchesters are not short stroked, the Navy Arms rifles are.  Now, the only one I handled and from what everyone else is saying, they are extremely well made so out of the box require less tuning possibly which has led to all kinds of mythology about them coming short stroked and tuned, etc.

I think they are simply built to tighter engineering controls in Japan than in Italy.  Or that is to say, all the carping about 1000+ dollar guns that then need work is less of an issue here.  I am sure they are not all perfect, but I am betting they are built to a higher standard internally than are the Ubertis.  

I am also betting that comparing one original or one uberti to a new Winchester is likely not a valid statistical sampling.

The problem is that everyone is using the Uberti as the gold standard.  

If you look at the pictures Major 2 posted you will see that the Miroku rifle IS designed with a short lever throw compared to the original Winchester 73 rifles. This has been a topic of discussion since the rifle was introduced.

The lever throw on the Miroku is closer to the earlier aftermarket short strokes than it is to an original Winchester.

The Uberti is being used as the standard because it IS regarding the lever throw and most handling aspects as close to the original 1873 Winchester as can be gotten without shooting an original.

[buckskin billy]

Billy, here are the pics. It is a 24 inch half round barrel, upgraded wood and checkering, 44WCF, Cimarron US finish bone and charcoal case hardening done by Classic Guns. It is custom serial numbered CLIFF3 to match my two Cimarron model P revolvers which were ordered with the same finish and caliber. I kind of wish I had ordered without the checkering because the wood is so nice the checkering almost takes away from the beauty of the wood. Especially on the forearm.

cliff very nice rifle, thanks for sharing the pictures

[Major 2]

Essentially, both sides of what is being written here is correct.

Miroku does not mention Short stroke, cause that is their OEM design , I call it enhanced   

Navy Arms is offering the a same action , but does point out the enhancement as Short Stroked

"Same" stroke  different folks 

The OEM Miroku is fine rifle and built with the stroke perhaps Original Winchester shoulda/ coulda had....
I'm quite sure , folks are working on Shorter Stroke's for the Miroku just as the 1st-5th. were done for the Uberti's.

Uberti is the Gold Standard ... many thousands are out there and in use and are considered the gun of choice for WAS.
Nothing wrong with tuned a gun or having to get one tuned both of reliability & speed ...
remember , (insert automobile or Bike of choice here) runs better and more beneficently tuned up 

Personally. I'm please to see Miroku/Winchester join Uberti and produce 73's
just as I'm please HRA saw fit to bring the H011 Original 1860 Henry to reality...

Shows interest in a market place, " Old west design seeing the light of day again "
I'm for the more the merrier, 

HRA making a 66    Miroku adding a 76     

Lets not make the Ford vs Chevy arrangements, rather bask in what else they might do. 

As for NCOWS we have maybe 800 great "like minded" members, maybe 250 active shooters ? maybe ?
SASS lists 100,000 members maybe 10,000-12,000 partially or fully active.

If you were designing a rifle to attract /suit John Q. Public & at the same time the active SASS folks... who would you want to reach ?


relax enjoy 
 

[Hargrave]

Cliff,

I will make you a deal ....  You order another rifle from Cimarron without the checkering and I will buy this one from you :-)

I know the guys at Classic Guns ... they are great people and now you are making me want to take a road trip to see them again. They worked on several rifles for me over the years. I really like the 1/2 round barrel you have there. I think I will have to contact Cimarron and see if they will get an order started for me. (unless you are going to sell)

Jacob

[Cliff Fendley]

Cliff,

I will make you a deal ....  You order another rifle from Cimarron without the checkering and I will buy this one from you :-)

I know the guys at Classic Guns ... they are great people and now you are making me want to take a road trip to see them again. They worked on several rifles for me over the years. I really like the 1/2 round barrel you have there. I think I will have to contact Cimarron and see if they will get an order started for me. (unless you are going to sell)

Jacob

Jacob, Not going to sell, took a year to get it and the serial number is CLIFF3 to match my two custom revolvers CLIFF 1 and 2. Sorry but your going to have to make that call

Bryan Buck with 3B shooting supply (Oklahoma Tom on this board) is the go to person for Cimarron custom orders, if it can be done he'll get er done. He knows everyone in the business and I'm thinking he actually talked to someone at Uberti about the half round barrel to get it done for me.

[Cliff Fendley]

Essentially, both sides of what is being written here is correct.

Miroku does not mention Short stroke, cause that is their OEM design , I call it enhanced   

Navy Arms is offering the a same action , but does point out the enhancement as Short Stroked

"Same" stroke  different folks 

The OEM Miroku is fine rifle and built with the stroke perhaps Original Winchester shoulda/ coulda had....
I'm quite sure , folks are working on Shorter Stroke's for the Miroku just as the 1st-5th. were done for the Uberti's.

Uberti is the Gold Standard ... many thousands are out there and in use and are considered the gun of choice for WAS.
Nothing wrong with tuned a gun or having to get one tuned both of reliability & speed ...
remember , (insert automobile or Bike of choice here) runs better and more beneficently tuned up 

Personally. I'm please to see Miroku/Winchester join Uberti and produce 73's
just as I'm please HRA saw fit to bring the H011 Original 1860 Henry to reality...

Shows interest in a market place, " Old west design seeing the light of day again "
I'm for the more the merrier, 

HRA making a 66    Miroku adding a 76     

Lets not make the Ford vs Chevy arrangements, rather bask in what else they might do. 

As for NCOWS we have maybe 800 great "like minded" members, maybe 250 active shooters ? maybe ?
SASS lists 100,000 members maybe 10,000-12,000 partially or fully active.

If you were designing a rifle to attract /suit John Q. Public & at the same time the active SASS folks... who would you want to reach ?


relax enjoy 
 

I'm certainly for HRA making a 66. I'd be the first in line for that one.

[Major 2]

Cliff
Actually, you would not    as I'm already camped out in that line....

If the my H011 is any indication of the 66 I might get... I'm sure we will not be lonely.
I don't know if you got a chance to see the H011 in Springfield ( NCOWS Conv.) I had it there, along with the review in the Shootist.
I don't seen to remember seeing you  

Sorry for the "OFF track" back to the Miroku

Truth is I've only held one, A Blued SRC 38/357 and rather early one I suppose, as this was back in Jan. 2014.
It had a noticeably less throw ...
 I say "noticeably".
However, in all fairness, as the then NCOWS Judge,  I could/would not make a recommendation to NCOWS...
based on the one and only example handled.

    I'm aware that the Factory is not say'n' it's Short Stroked or advertising same...

The current NCOWS Judge & Committee are awaiting an example to review.

 



 

[yahoody]

That factory installed short stroke makes it a no go for me besides the fact of it not being available in an authentic caliber. Besides my last custom Cimarron was similar to that with more options and a little less money and more authentic.

Hey Cliff, nice rifle you got there.  Since you mentioned price, and the year wait, what did you pay for yours?

New Winchester aint going to be legal in NCOWS I heard.   Mighty blow to some beautiful guns (not all of them are beautiful mind you) for a gun that has a the Winchester name on it and none new since the 1920s. 

I have yet to get mine but bought it specifically for the Winchester name.  Knowing what the last generation of Brownings were.

I need to see more info on what was actually changed in the newest '73.   

[Major 2]

"New Winchester aint going to be legal in NCOWS I heard."

I have no doubt you might have heard that....

But the real crust is it has not been reviewed by the (current) Judge & Authenticity Comm.

It is not disapproved , by name

It is by gender approved...

Tally Book states :
Winchester model 1860, 1866, 1873, 1876, 1886, and 1892 manufactured by Armi san Marco, Uberti & others

Clearly,  Miroku (Winchester) , Chaparral , Rossi , Armi Sport and HRA's H011 1860 Henry are OTHERS and approved.

and by name disapproved  Beretta Renegade (an 1873 w/factory installed short stroke)

What would hinder it's Miroku/Navy Arms approval would be getting any Short Stroke past

"Whats not allowed "

Short stroke kits for toggle link rifles ....

That is a question for the Committee , the Judge and their recommendation(s) to Congress...where in they (Congress) have the duty to approve or disapprove.

A year ago, (as Judge) I reported my observation on only one example a Miroku (Winchester) carbine in 38/357... to date that is the only one I handled.
I wrote in the Judge's Chamber, of that observation and suggested "if" one was to buy one for NCOWS shooting specifically, one might use caution based on the Shorter Stroke action.  

The Beretta Renegade is dis-approved by name, and made by Uberti with a factory short stroke...

 Miroku (Winchester) may or may not have the same factory links as the Miroku Navy Arms, but the Navy Arms have by NA advertising a factory short stroke, however neither have been evaluated/reviewed to my knowledge for NCOWS Approval.

 

[King Medallion]

I'm probly in the minority here, but personally I don't think ANY short stroke system should be allowed in any cowboy games. I figger they didn't have them back then, shouldn't have them now. But that's just me.

[Major 2]

I'm probly in the minority here, but personally I don't think ANY short stroke system should be allowed in any cowboy games. I figger they didn't have them back then, shouldn't have them now. But that's just me.

That is NCOWS position, to which I agree ...

It is however, a can "o" worms  which is opened on occasion 

[Tommy Reb]

Hello Major 2.  FYI, the lever throw on my Navy Arms Turnbull Miroku with the "factory short stroke" is essentially identical to that of my Miroku with a PGW Super Short Stroke kit installed.

TR