Author Topic: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question  (Read 7733 times)

Offline Capt. John Fitzgerald

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We have been joined by a new member to the forum, Don Kenna, who originally posted to the "Register as a Member" topic.  I replied to him and he, in turn, posted the following which I have taken the liberty to copy and resubmit here.   Hopefully, some of the regulars here will have some answers for him.  Here it is;

Thanks, Capt. John:

I do have a question or two about my most recent acquisition, a USFA Pre-War Black Powder Frame revolver in .45 Colt with a 7.5-inch barrel.  Serial number is P126696.  It has a couple of anomalies, the most noticeable of which is its complete lack of any caliber or chambering marking anywhere on it--not on the barrel or the trigger guard.  (Before anyone tells me that this is normal for that configuration of USFA revolver, I should state that I have a presumably earlier [P119XXX] Pre-War Black Powder Frame revolver in .45 Colt with a 4.75-inch barrel, and ".45 Colt" is stamped on the barrel and ".45 Cal." on the trigger guard.)  Also, the serial number is stamped only on the forward underside of the frame, but not on the trigger guard.  The number is stamped rather sloppily at enough of an angle so that the front edge of the trigger guard partially covers the last number.  Finally, the front edges of the cylinder flutes are chamfered only very slightly.

That's all the bad news if it can be termed such.  The revolver otherwise exhibits the typically near-flawless workmanship, fit, finish, and timing that I came to expect from USFA.  I suspect this revolver may have been a very late assembly, after the decision to close down had been made and announced, and the work force was rushing to complete final orders.

Any other ideas or comments?

Don Kenna
You can't change the wind, but you can always change your sails.

Offline Capt. John Fitzgerald

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Re: Serial Numbers - New Member w/ question
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2014, 12:33:11 AM »
Don,
Hopefully, Gary Granger, who was sales manager for USFA and who frequents this board as "GaryG," will sign on with some specific information for you.
As for your gun being later production, I would agree with you because of the lack of serial numbers on the trigger guard.  Originally USFA stamped the frame, trigger guard and grip frame on all of their guns in order to replicate what Cold did with their 1st gen. guns.  Toward the end USFA stopped doing this, at least on their standard models.  I assume that they did this as a labor saving effort as all numbers were hand stamped.  Hand stamping would also account for the unevenness that you mentioned.
CJF
You can't change the wind, but you can always change your sails.

Offline GaryG

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2014, 09:08:43 AM »
With a serial number Pxxxxxx, my first guess without seeing pics the gun, that would be a Uberti frame.  In the early days of USFA, the frames came already numbered from Italy.   Additional numbering, TG & BS were done at the factory.   No cal markings sounds like an "oops" though Inspector series guns were sent out without cal markings on the barrel.   Also, occasionally an owner would "blowup" their gun.   If that was the case, a replacement would be made (for a charge) using the same serial number but using all US parts. 

There was a period of time (2007-2008 ??) when serial numbers on the SA (CC/DB) were not stamped on the TG or BS.  This was to save time though the company eventually went back to stamping the numbers on BS & TG.   They were always left off the Rodeos.  These numbers were never left off the Pre War models.  The Pre War really meant a colorcase and Armory Blue finish.   Pre Wars left the factory with both Black Powder and cross pin frames. 


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Offline Don Kenna

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 03:21:58 PM »
Thanks, Gents:

I'll try to get photos posted sometime in the near future.

Don Kenna

Offline Buckaroo Lou

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2014, 11:35:20 PM »
I have one of the 2007-2008 guns Gary is talking about that has the serial number stamped only on the frame and not on the TG or BS. It is a Premium 4 3/4" SA in 45 Colt with a 45 ACP cylinder.
A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.

Offline Don Kenna

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 09:22:42 PM »
I'll try to post some photos of the revolver in question.  Any additional information or commentary would be welcome.

Don

Offline Don Kenna

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2014, 12:41:37 AM »
Photos--Part II

Offline GaryG

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2014, 07:17:09 AM »
That would be a Uberti.  Note the knurling on the hammer.  Uberti hammers are cast with the knurling part of the casting.  The firing pin is another give away.  Later model USFA's only used that style of firing pin in a 357.  Occasionally a gun woud come back for primers backing out (38Sp or 32-20) and ths type of firing pin would be installed.

Offline Don Kenna

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2014, 06:40:13 PM »
Thanks, Gary.  I rather assumed that's what it was, but wasn't completely sure.

I guess I can understand the "prejudice" against USPFA/USFA revolvers made with Uberti parts.  I must say, however, that the two USFA/Uberti revolvers I have compare very favorably in fit and finish (with the exception of the wooden grips) with my two "all USA" USFA revolvers.

Don   

Offline Don Kenna

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2014, 06:55:07 PM »
Thanks, Gary.  I rather assumed that's what it was, but wasn't completely sure.

I guess I can understand the "prejudice" against USPFA/USFA revolvers made with Uberti parts.  I must say, however, that the two USFA/Uberti revolvers I have compare very favorably in fit and finish (with the exception of the wooden grips) with my two "all USA" USFA revolvers.

Don   

Offline GaryG

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2014, 12:02:28 AM »
Don,
The early USFA/Ubertis came over as complete guns "in the white".  Later USFA/Ubertis came over as parts (also "in the white") and all the fitting and finishing was done just like the US made USFAs.  The only issue is that some of the cylinder throats  may be oversize. 
Gary

Offline Don Kenna

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2014, 02:50:38 AM »
Gary:

Interesting information.  I've seen some US Patent Firearms revolvers (actually pictures on the web) that had both Uberti and USPFA markings on the barrel.  I presume those must have been very early ones.  Neither of my USFA "P" prefix revolvers have any readily visible Uberti markings on them.

It so happens that I measured the cylinder mouths on the pictured revolver shortly after I bought it.  One might say they are oversized; i.e., a consistent .4565-inch, the same size as those of my 2nd Generation Colts in .45 Colt.  I haven't slugged the bore in the USFA revolver, but have assumed that it's the same as the Colts' .451-inch.  The only loads I've shot out of it so far were black powder loads assembled with my usual .454-inch bullets.  It shot very well indeed.

Don

Offline GaryG

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2014, 08:04:49 AM »
The cylinder throats on the US made 45 cylinders were .4515-.4525.  The barrels are .450.   You didn't ask but the the US made 44 barrels (44-40 & 44 Sp) had a .428 bore.  Towards the end, USFA bought 44 barrel stock from Ruger and they had .429 bores.

Offline Pettifogger

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2014, 10:14:48 AM »
Thanks Gary.  Lots of great information.  Do you know how many Lightning rifles USFA produced?  I have a .44-40 carbine I am thinking about selling, but you just don't see that many of them around.

Offline GaryG

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Re: Serial Numbers/Markings - New Member (Don Kenna) w/ question
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 10:44:20 AM »
I really can't remember.  I think they first appeared in 2005, maybe late 2004.  44-40 & 38-40 were the best calibers.  When one came back for repair, you could win a lot of bets if said it was a 45LC.

 

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