Model 1860 Spencer Carbine ---altered after the Civil War for use during the IWs

[drm2m]

Many of the Model 1860 carbines that were altered after the Civil War for use during the Indian Wars, aside from the change in calibre lost most of their Civil War stock markings.

This carbine retains some of the inspectors' stock cartouches relating to the Civil War as well as the E.S.A. marking for the carbine post war conversion.

As much as these cartouches have survived the alterations ----the barrel address has all but disappeared as a result of the Springfield Armoury conversion process.

Supposedly this carbine S/N 53299  'might have been' issued to Company A, 3rd Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry in 1864 during the Civil War.

David









At that time the Stabler Cut-Off in front of the trigger was added to limit the carbine to single shot fire.





Comments from Roy Marcot's book.





Erskine S. Allin.



His ESA cartouche on these converted guns.

[Two Flints]

David,

Terrific thread, thanks for sharing    Would like to see your Civil War Collection.  Please add any additional information to this same thread . . . keep it all together

Two Flints

[El Supremo]

Nice presentation:

Respectfully:
Is there documentation for the small case "c" on the rear end of the sling bar, please? 

If it is believed to indicate that it was converted, were all stamped this way  and what might be the documentation for that, please?

Thanks.

[Advertising]

[drm2m]

El Supremo,

Thanks for the comment.

I am sorry that I can't answer your question.
I took a quick look at the Marcot book and did not see any reference to the small case "c".
Marcot goes into a detailed description of how to identify factory conversions and there was no reference to converted guns having the "c".
Perhaps it is an inspectors marking?

Perhaps someone else knows.

David

[El Supremo]

Thanks, David:

Are there any two-digit numbers stamped on major parts, please?

Thanks for sharing and helping expand our info base.

Regards,
Kevin

[drm2m]

Two Flints asked me to post photos of my Civil War collection.

I will start with group photos as I have detailed photos of every piece in my collection.
Most of the group photos were taken years ago and need to be upgraded.
My first two CW pieces were a 58 New Model Remington Army and 58 Double Action Starr Army revolver purchased back in the early 1970s.
My collection grew slowly from there.

My collection includes three carbines –the Spencer, a New model 1863 Sharps (50-70) and a Smith.
An early M1841 Mississippi rifle-Whitney contract dated 1848--- A early Model 1842 musket Harpers Ferry manufactured in 1843.
Various swords and bayonets and CW period revolvers some martial ---some not –various Colts.
 
I live in Canada---not the best place to be a U.S. Civil War collector.
Gun shows full of CW stuff is not something that I have experienced.
I will add different photos periodically as I don’t want to bore you with my “baby photos” all at once.

David



























The last addition to my collection ---Remington-Rider fluted cylinder D.A. New Model Belt revolver. circa 1863-65.
Pretty rare---I understand.

[drm2m]

El Supremo,

"Are there any two-digit numbers stamped on major parts, please?"

I have no idea----I never looked.
I am very reluctant to take these guns apart----although I tend to photograph any markings that are visible on all my guns.

David

My first two CW revolvers ---early 1970s.



An Orville W. Ainsworth  (O.W.A.) cartouche on the left grip of this New Model 58 Remington Army Revolver.




My other two carbines---the Smith.






JM cartouche on the stock of the Smith carbine.



The three carbines in my collection.




A cluttered CW collection photo.




Another one.




A New Model 1863 Sharps carbine --converted to 50-70.

















DFC stock cartouche for David F. Clark on these altered Sharps carbines to 50-70 center fire.




Two Ames manufactured  CW swords---Model 1840 'The wrist breaker' (top) and a Model 1860 cavalry saber.
The Model 1840 is 1845 dated and is beautifully marked---a very nice piece.



http://proofhouse.com/cm/us_inspector.htm


The inspectors' pommel marking on this Model 1840 sword---WAT ---for William A. Thornton whose initials are seen on many early American arms---quite special.




WAT -William Anderson Thornton Capt., USA Nippes M1840 Musket, Ames, Aston R. Johnson & Waters Pistols and Massachusetts Arms Adams, Remington Beals, Savage, Colt, Paterson, Walker and Dragoon Revolvers, Joslyn Carbines, Colt Revolving Rifles 1840-1861

William Anderson Thornton.

[El Supremo]

What a treat, David:

Thanks so much for sharing. 

Regards

[drm2m]

Thanks Kevin.

Some more stuff......almost finished.







Two M1860 Colt Armies---1862 and 1863 manufactured.




51 Colt Navy-Army revolver---martially marked. Sub-inspector's cartouche 'MM'  on the left grip. (See the chart below)






No original finish remaining-- but very clear markings on this revolver.








61 Colt Navy--serial number 3830--manufactured in 1861.



M1862 Colt Poilice and 49 Colt Pocket revolver.





Some of the markings on the 49 Pocket Colt.







Manhattan Series 1 Navy revolver.



58 Remington Army and 60 Colt Army with a Gaylord marked holster.




Model 1842 Musket---manufactured by Harpers Ferry in 1843.





Model 1861 Rifle Musket----Muir Contract---dated 1863.







David

[drm2m]

Model 1842 Musket---this one is lock dated 1843— marked Harpers Ferry.

Between 1843 and 1855 a total of 275,000 of this model were manufactured by Springfield and Harpers Ferry Armories, of which 172,000 were turned out at Springfield alone. The bayonet utilized for this model musket was the Model 1842 socket bayonet, which was 20-1/2 inches long, with a 2-7/8 inch socket and an 18-inch triangular blade. The U.S. Model 1842 Musket was the first arm to be produced at both the Harpers Ferry and Springfield Armories on a completely interchangeable basis, and aside even from this significant fact, holds a prominent position in the development of U.S. military shoulder arms. This was the first regulation percussion arm produced in the national armories, and at the same time, the last of the .69 caliber smoothbores.


Widely used in the first two years of the war by both sides, and used by certain regiments, like those of the Irish Brigade and the 12th NJ, who preferred it, into late 1864.  The 12th's Gettysburg monument is as much to the '42 as to the regiment. It is topped with a large sphere and three smaller ones, with the line "buck and ball."








.69 Caliber Buck And Ball Paper Cartridge for the Model 1842 Musket---NOT MINE.




Buck and ball was a common load for muzzle-loading muskets, and was frequently used in the American Revolutionary War and into the early days of the American Civil War. The load usually consisted of a .69 caliber round lead musket ball that was combined with three to six buckshot pellets.

Buck and ball was issued in paper cartridges that combined the projectiles with the black powder propellant charge to facilitate rapid loading of the weapon. The buckshot would set in front of the ball, so that the ball would act as a gas seal for the buckshot. Like any other paper cartridge, the rear of the cartridge would be torn open to expose the powder, which would be loaded, and the remaining paper, balls, and buckshot would be rammed down on top.

 The Union Irish Brigade retained their smoothbore muskets until late in the American Civil War so they could fire buck and ball during the relatively close range battles. The buck and ball load was standard issue throughout the Seminole Wars of 1815 - 1845. With the advent of general issue rifled muskets in the American Civil War, and longer engagement ranges during the later stages of the war, the buck and ball loading began to fade from use. Buck and ball did see action in the remaining inventory of smoothbore muskets at Gettysburg and later actions. The effective Irish Brigade use of buck and ball against Pickett's Charge is notable. The buck and ball load has been replaced in current military inventories by standard buckshot loadings in the combat shotgun.

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Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle Musket---this particular gun is .58 caliber (24 bore)
Lock plate dated 1861.
 
U.S. Model 1861 Rifle Musket--lock plate dated 1863.
 
Wm  MUIR & CO

U S  WINDSOR LOCKS CT



Bayonet on the 53 Enfield.



Two Model 1855 socket bayonets.




David

[drm2m]

U.S.Model 1841 Percussion Rifle, a.k.a."Mississippi Rifle"
Whitney Contract, this gun is dated 1848. Originally .54 caliber, some rifles were later altered to .58 caliber. This rifle remains in .54 caliber.

Lock marked:
 E  WHITNEY (over US)
N. HAVEN (over) 1848

Whitney Contract -March 27 1848 for 7,500 rifles.

Total Whitney production of Model 1841 rifles ---approx. 22,600 in four contracts.



U.S.Percussion Rifle, Model 1841.
Caliber .54 rifled with seven grooves (some guns were re-rifled to .58 caliber after 1855, together with the addition of a long distance rear sight, and a different ramrod.) The lock plate on these guns was case-hardened, and the barrel was lacquer browned. The black walnut stock was oil-finished. As originally produced, the Model 1841 rifle was not fitted for a bayonet of any type.

This model was the first regulation percussion arm to be produced with a rifled barrel and was considered the finest military rifle of its day.
Total production at Harpers Ferry Armoury was 25,296 guns with an additional 45,500 rifles manufactured by six other contractors.

This model first developed its name "Mississippi Rifle" after having been used by the First Mississippi Volunteer Infantry Regiment in the Battle of Buena Vista in February 1847, under the command of Jefferson Davis during the Mexican War. (1846-1848)  

NOTE;
It was Model 1841 rifles produced by Whitney which reputedly were shipped to the First Mississippi Volunteer Infantry during the Mexican Way, and from which the term ”Mississippi Rifle” was derived.
Regardless, however, Whitney Model 1841 rifles bearing dates earlier than 1850 are the exception instead of the rule, with many more being delivered after this date than before.
(Robert M. Reilly-United States Military Small Arms 1816-1865)



In addition to deciding on the increase in caliber, it was also decided to adapt the brass-hilted saber bayonet to the Model 1841 Rifles. The saber bayonets for these rifles were of three types.



The bayonet shown is a second type bayonet that is of a more common lug type. The alterations were made at Harpers Ferry between 1855 and 1857, 10,286 bayonets of this type were produced.  

Adapting this bayonet, required a major alteration to the upper end of the rifle, including the addition of the lug to the right side of the barrel, the shortening of the stock, and the use of a shorter upper barrel band.



The PB/P stamp on the Harpers Ferry bayonets is for Phillip Burkhart, the foreman of the barrel shop.







---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model 1840 Cavalry saber manufactured by Ames in 1845--- the first year of issue----not too far from the 1848 date of manufacture of the Model 1841 rifle. (possible Mexican War dating)






Inspector's markings.





An unknown marking----including the guy that wrote the books.



An interesting article about Ames.

The Ames Manufacturing Company—Civil War and New England Mill Town.

http://newenglandtravels.blogspot.com/2009/03/ames-manufacturing-company-civil-war.html


Back to where this thread started---M1860 Spencer carbine---with some CW friends-





David


 

[drm2m]

I found this info regarding Company "A" Third Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry.




I wonder if one of these troopers was issued this Spencer carbine?





David,
I see a Spencer Carbine, serial # 53,317 as issued to Company A, 3rd Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry, in 1864 (no day or month give) . . . your serial # is 53,299.
Hope this helps,

Two Flints-moderator on Spencer Shooting Society.





From John D. McAulay's book-Carbines of the U.S. Cavalry 1861-1905.





NOTE;

I find the photo above rather interesting.
It shows a Model 1860 Spencer carbine serial number 54,589 that was issued to B.O.Mitchell 3rd Kentucky Cavalry Company “A” in 1865.

My Model 1860 carbine was supposedly issued to someone in Company "A" 3rd Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry in 1864—serial number 53,299.
Pretty close serial numbers.

Mitchell, Benj. O.
Pvt.
A

Mitchell appears in;
THIRD KENTUCKY CAVALRY
from "Union Regiments of Kentucky"
(Under the 13th Army Corps)

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kymercer/CivilWar/Union/3cav/3cav-3.html

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Kentucky was a border state of key importance in the American Civil War. President Abraham Lincoln recognized the importance of the Commonwealth when he declared "I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky." In a September 1861 letter to Orville Browning, Lincoln wrote "I think to lose Kentucky is nearly the same as to lose the whole game. ... We would as well consent to separation at once, including the surrender of the capital."

Kentucky, being a border state, was among the chief places where the "Brother against brother" scenario was prevalent. Kentucky was officially neutral at the beginning of the war, but after a failed attempt by Confederate General Leonidas Polk to take the state of Kentucky for the Confederacy, the legislature petitioned the Union for assistance, and thereafter became solidly under Union control.

Kentucky was the site of fierce battles, such as Mill Springs and Perryville. It was host to such military leaders as Ulysses S. Grant on the Union side, who first encountered serious Confederate gunfire coming from Columbus, Kentucky, and Nathan Bedford Forrest on the Confederate side. Forrest proved to be a scourge to the Union Army in such places as the towns of Sacramento and Paducah, where he conducted guerrilla warfare against Union forces.

Kentucky was the birthplace of Abraham Lincoln, his wife Mary Todd, and his southern counterpart, Confederate President Jefferson Davis.

Though President Davis had some reservation about the circumvention of the elected General Assembly in forming the Confederate government, Kentucky was admitted to the Confederacy on December 10, 1861. Kentucky was represented by the central star on the Confederate battle flag.

David