Henry and 1866 Brass Frame Problems

[Ford D. River]

I am interested in a '66 in 44 Special.   I keep hearing that the brass frame is weak and wears out quickly.   But, I havent been able to find much real evidence of this.  A +P load is out, of course, but what about just standard loads?   Thanks

[River City John]

Not true.

Frames are more than strong enough. I've been shooting my '66 for over twelve years and still going strong.

RCJ

[Abilene]

I am interested in a '66 in 44 Special.   I keep hearing that the brass frame is weak and wears out quickly.   But, I havent been able to find much real evidence of this.  A +P load is out, of course, but what about just standard loads?   Thanks

The reason you haven't been able to find much real evidence is that there isn't much.  I am aware of a handful of instances over the years in which hot loads have stretched the brass frame.  I am also aware of a huge number of guns using standard or lighter loads that are still chuggin' along.

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[Major 2]

I have a Henry made in 79 still a tight & sweet shooter .
I know I used the Begees-ist out of it 10 years reenacting on Horse back sold it in 88, and bought it back in 08
 no idea how much it was used in CAS in the 20 years....  

Only problem is this circa Henry did not have the muzzle swivel lock, and you could damage the Magazine spring if it swiveled opened.
Easily done on horse back if you hung up in branches, ask me how I know  

[Mean Bob Mean]

I have never met an 1866 owner who indicated any issue whatsoever with the frame.  Some had them a couple years, some are 10+ year veterans of shooting them in matches.  As you noted, +P are out, as they are for open tops and conversions, so it's a common sense thing.

[Ford D. River]

Gents, thanks for the info.  The 44 Special is one of my favorites and a '66 is high up on my wish list.

[Major 2]

My 73 is a 44 Special, I agree its great round

[Coffinmaker]

Every now and again this subject comes up.  A few years back there was a real brewhahaha over it on another board.  There have been just a couple instances where brass guns have been damaged.  Some ham hock dumb enough to shoot em with really hot (smokeless) ammunition.  However .......... With current SAMMI or CAS level ammunition, the rifles will outlast the shooters by a comfortable margin.
I've been shooting brass rifles almost exclusively for the last "several" (I'm older than dirt), well ..... ok ......... Well over 16 years and they all have something over 50,000 rounds thru em.  Take a licking and keep right on chugging.  Wait a minute .... Chugging ..... That's for BEER.   

Coffinmaker

[Pettifogger]

I am interested in a '66 in 44 Special.   I keep hearing that the brass frame is weak and wears out quickly.   But, I havent been able to find much real evidence of this.  A +P load is out, of course, but what about just standard loads?   Thanks

I guess the more interesting question is "where" do you keep hearing this?  The assertion is demonstrably false as 66s have been used in competition for years and many top shooters have fired tens of thousands of rounds through them.  So, where ever you are "hearing" this don't go back there for gun information.  With SAAMI spec .44 Special ammunition you will never wear one out.

[Seth Hawkins]

I don't recall where I read this, but it has been claimed that the brass-framed guns aren't really "brass" but actually some kind of alloy that contains brass, but is much stronger than a "true" all-brass frame.  This is probably how they're able to pass the SAAMI testing and remain in tip-top shape after so many thousands of rounds of smokeless ammo.

[Trooper Hook]

The brass frames are actually a brass bronze alloy known as gunmetal or also called red brass.  For an explanation of this see the link I will post here. Note the picture of the shiny brass colored parts accompanying it.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunmetal

[Coffinmaker]

Guns made by Uberti are not gunmetal, as was previously thought by me as well.  One of our trusted fellow shooters had the metallurgy done and Uberti Guns are ........ Brass.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

I've had my 45 colt 1860 around 10 years now and have fired somewhere north of 5000 rounds through it before I stopped counting.  All but maybe 100 rounds have been warthog black powder, 250 grain PRS bullet with as much black powder as I could stuff in it.  Every so often I'd check head space with nary a sign of stretch.

[Pettifogger]

Actually, they don't stretch.  That's an old wives tale.  What happens is the steel pins in the frame hammer out their seats, the pins in the links wear and you get excessive head space.  By the time you put in an overload strong enough to actually stretch the frame, something else will give first.

[PJ Hardtack]

I have a beautiful gun metal bronze pipe tomahawk and it is as hard as the hubs of hell!

I got it rough sand cast and have to put it in the hands of a knife making friend for polishing. He told me that it was most certainly NOT brass, as I had thought.
My Henry and '66 both have myriad little dings from ejected brass cases. That would not happen if the frames were made from phosphor bronze gun metal.

Guns made by Uberti are not gunmetal, as was previously thought by me as well.  One of our trusted fellow shooters had the metallurgy done and Uberti Guns are ........ Brass.

Coffinmaker

[Mogorilla]

Well, if Tin had been more plentiful, we may never have had the Iron Age.  Some of the bronze swords of ancient times were quite impressive.   There was a Chinese bronze sword (made for a king, so it explains the quality) that was made as a double pour, core was ~7% tin, gave it flexibility and the edge was ~15% for hardness and sharpness.   It was made ~5 th century B.C.   Best equivalent in Iron/Steel was made ~1400 years later as a Viking Broadsword, same concept, flexible core and hard steel edge.   I have no doubt if you have a bronze tomahawk it is impressive.  In my youth a buddy and myself poured a bronze sword and spear head.  When both were cleaned, hardened and sharpened, they were impressive weapons.  Good Bronze would match many pre modern steels.   
I have been witness to several bronze cannons being fired.  Always enjoy it as the have a tone afterwards that is almost bell like.