Cross-draw holsters in the real West

[bowiemaker]

Gettiing a group around here wouldn't be a problem. Getting a place to do it around here is the problem.

[RobMancebo]

The practice of butt forward really comes from the adaptation of military scabbards into the civilian world. There is a photo of Hickok in 1867 wearing what may be a flap style scabbard and it appears that the flap is folded back, tucked into the belt behind the scabbard (it is difficult to ascertain with full certainty due to the graininess of the photo). In that same photo, Bill is wearing only one Navy revolver worn on his right side. Even tho Bill was noted to employ the reverse plainsman's twist draw, in this particular photo it does appear the revolver is in a position for a cross draw. It would be rather odd to have a military holster made to be worn on the left side since issue side carry was on the right side. Perhaps a custom made rig of some sort.

 A photo of Bill about the time of the Tutt shooting, shows another odd looking holster on his right side, almost looks like it has a straight top, again, hard to see exactly. The pistols are worn butts forward but so high on his waist that one would have to think that he would have to employ a cross draw to get them into battery. He was known to do that when sitting down.

Two pistoled shootists were not that common, even in the day of cap n ball with notable exceptions. Even less common with cartridge revolvers. Damn things are heavy after a time. IMHO, wearing revolvers in 2 right side holsters, while not PEC, was possibly done but apparently not photographed a great deal. Fellers probably used what they could get there hands on that fit their needs at the moment.

There's another consideration with a reverse or 'twist' draw- speed.  The Victorians mostly wore their guns high.  A high gun doesn't get in the way when mounting a horse or sitting in a chair.  It also allows you to keep someone from grabbing it away from you in a brawl by simply clamping down with your elbow.  Up high around the waste was not only the fashion, it is a great way to carry a gun.  What a high gun also does--  is make it really hard to draw a long barreled revolver.  So, to get around that you get a little slop in your belt loop (So the holster will tilt forward) and reverse the weapon.  It looks awkward, but if any of you have a slim-jim holster, give it a try.  Instead of raising the gun to clear the barrel, just reverse your hand and whip it out forward-- pop!  A Colt hammer makes for an easy grab and the weight of the gun naturally cocks the piece on the way out.  (Try this with an empty gun, of course, because it's all too easy to cock it while it passes across your gut.   Better to practice getting the muzzle pointed somewhere besides yourself before using a twist draw with a loaded gun.)  Anyway, you change the whole draw from: arm and shoulder draaaaging that long barrel up and out of the holster- to your wrist whipping the piece forward and cocking with momentum.  They'll never allow this in CAS due to that muzzle covering yourself and the folks behind you, but in real life, it's a good way to speed up your draw. 

[harleydavis]

There's another consideration with a reverse or 'twist' draw- speed.  The Victorians mostly wore their guns high.  A high gun doesn't get in the way when mounting a horse or sitting in a chair.  It also allows you to keep someone from grabbing it away from you in a brawl by simply clamping down with your elbow.  Up high around the waste was not only the fashion, it is a great way to carry a gun.  What a high gun also does--  is make it really hard to draw a long barreled revolver.  So, to get around that you get a little slop in your belt loop (So the holster will tilt forward) and reverse the weapon.  It looks awkward, but if any of you have a slim-jim holster, give it a try.  Instead of raising the gun to clear the barrel, just reverse your hand and whip it out forward-- pop!  A Colt hammer makes for an easy grab and the weight of the gun naturally cocks the piece on the way out.  (Try this with an empty gun, of course, because it's all too easy to cock it while it passes across your gut.   Better to practice getting the muzzle pointed somewhere besides yourself before using a twist draw with a loaded gun.)  Anyway, you change the whole draw from: arm and shoulder draaaaging that long barrel up and out of the holster- to your wrist whipping the piece forward and cocking with momentum.  They'll never allow this in CAS due to that muzzle covering yourself and the folks behind you, but in real life, it's a good way to speed up your draw. 

Exactly correct. Barrels of percussion revolvers were generally 7"-8" and even early cartridge revolvers were long barrels. I have proven this over and over with fellers by having them wear their belt at natural waist, butt rearward with a long barreled revolver, and I will have my pistols in battery before them 9 times out of 10.

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[Guns Garrett]

Here's a photo of Texas Ranger Capt. Junius June Peak, taken ca. 1878.  He is wearing two pistols, butt-forward, each on a separate cartridge belt.

[FlyingZebra]

Peak wears them high too.

I've had nothing but ElPaso slim jim holsters for my 1851 and 1860 Colts, the '71-72 fits well too.
I've always worn them high.  Only since I saw this thread have I thought of calvary carry.
Tried this last week and I was surprised at how different - and how slick the draw is.

[MJN77]

He is wearing two pistols, butt-forward, each on a separate cartridge belt.

Actually if you look close, the revolvers (and his knife) are on the same (top) belt. The second belt would have been for his carbine ammo.

[yahoody]

Gentlemen it is all fantasy.  Think not?  Go put on your shirt and pants, your shotgun chaps, your boots and spurs.  Then climb up on your favorite pony and tell me how you want to strap on your iron, let along your rifle for a full day in the saddle.

I have a box full of really nice leather.  Double holster rigs and single with different style belts including some straight out of "Packing Iron".   And my Grandfathers ranch gun and holster.

These days we all generally have some sort of "city" leather.  Holsters that might work on a horse but not likely with a tight belt.  High and tight and butt to the back works with short guns.  Loose belts and butt forward with long barreled guns.   But aint none of it very comfortable on a horse.  YOU would REALLY have to have the need to carry any gun (long or short) on a horse to want to carry a gun.  Better in the saddle pockets.  Lots of broken stocks on the long guns from horse carry.  A J-frame more common these days in a chap packet than a SAA on the belt where cowboys ride.

My Great Grandfather grew up in IT and knew what a hand gun was used for.  He owned SAAs but prefered a 1911.  Get on a horse and you'll understand why.   Much as I love the romance and shooting of a good SAA, there were several reasons they were abandoned darn quick once other big bores options were available.

[FriscoCounty]

In at least one version of Wyatt Earp's retelling of what happened at Iron Springs he related that he had loosened his cartridge belt during the ride there and it had slipped down around his legs after he dismounted.

[Trailrider]

Several things... Butt forward with a slight cant (muzzle to the rear) worn high (NO slop) is both practical and comfortable, even on a horse! (In my younger days, when I packed into the high country on horseback, that's how I wore my Ruger Blackhawk. Advantage: you can get at the gun with either hand (assuming your belly isn't humongous). As far as the twist or cavalry draw requiring you to sweep your body, it does NOT, if properly done! You turn you hand palm-outward, thumb to the rear. Your elbow naturally points out at a 90 degree angle from your body. You lift the gun from the holster keeping the gun sights-downward until the gun is level. You then rotate your wrist and the gun sights-upward.  IF you practice with an empty gun, you can start by hooking your thumb around the hammer spur as the spur clears the top of the holster. As the gun is turned upright it practically cocks itself. KEEP YOUR TRIGGER FINGER OUT OF THE GUARD UNTIL THE GUN POINTS DOWNRANGE! Until you have mastered the draw, KEEP YOUR THUMB OFF THE HAMMER SPUR! I don't use the twist draw in SASS events because I got tired of explaining the fact that it is safe! But that's how it is done.

[Doug.38PR]

Bill, I'll put the other side of the argument, why do you need more than two guns to shoot a lot, GAF has a Class for rifle only called Militiaman that uses only the rifle or the one for the really good ones called Staff Officer where you shoot just the pistol, some have done that one, Larry Little aka Gripmaker has and done well, but the man knows how to shoot something  out a little bit beyond dang close with a hand gun.

Couple videos Doug Strong took last year, may make you consider the trip, bring someone along, split the driving and gas. 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1VrbmYd5Ps[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmI0s49qP2c[/youtube]

You make the trip sometime and I'll make sure the cook gives you double rations on dessert. 

Love those videos! 

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Thanks fellas. Del, your question in the preceding post is exactly the one I ask myself every time I think about this endeavor.
I don't want to re-enact 20th and 21st century fantasies.
I want to re-enact life in the world of my real ancestors, as near as I can to their truth.
I wish someone would re-approach this whole "game, hobby, avocation," whatever, around a SINGLE handgun, a shotgun and a rifle.
And instead of all these goofy speed stages, I'd rather see a move-run-crouch-dive-behind-the-water-trough, be scared stiff and yell stuff at the ornery SOB who's taking pot shots at me kind of a thing.
If it means neither SASS  nor NCOWS, so be it.
Just call me goofy.
Now I'll just quit dreaming and shut up.

I agree with you 100%