A date that shall live in infamy.

[Gus Walker]

 December 7 1941; A date we should never forget. I am thinking about those that gave all that day at Pearl Harbor.

[Blair]

I am always rather surprised at the younger generation of Japanese that accuse the US of the genocide posed on their people with the two "A" bombs we dropped on Japan.
Surprised on my part because the younger generation tend to forget who started the War with a surprise attack.
Surprised on my part also because the new generation also tends to forget who it was that helped Japan rebuild their Nation.
My best,
Blair

[PJ Hardtack]

Not surprising. While serving in Germany, I married a German girl whose father had been a Panzer Grenadier, one of the few to escape the encirclement of Stalingrad.

He and I had a lot discussions about the war, my wife translating. Her generation knew nothing about the Nazi era as it was not being taught in schools and was not a topic of discussion in post war German society. The current generation of young Germans is breaking that code of silence.

I've read that more Japanese visit the Pearl Harbor Memorial than Americans as do they other WWII battle sites - Iwo Jima included.
Mike Venturino reported seeing a well  maintained Japanese Howitzer on the Island, kept up by the families of soldiers in their memory.

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[Blair]

P J,

OK, who helped West Germany rebuild after the War?
Please note, It was not only the US, but, there are few of the other Allies that had the ability to help, due to rebuilding their own countries.
Blair

[PJ Hardtack]

It was the Marshall Plan that rebuilt West Germany post war. And the Berlin Airlift that kept the city alive in 1948.

Both are mainly American contributions to the safety and security of post WWII Europe. Thank you, America!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Yes it should be remembered, and might have not been quite so surprising.  The Japanese had their imperial ambitions threatened by an American embargo. But isn't it remarkable that our enemies of WWII are now allies and our former allies are now competitors.

[RattlesnakeJack]

What is also largely forgotten by Americans (.... if, indeed, they ever knew of it ....) is that less than eight hours after the start of the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese launched a massive air and ground assault on Hong Kong.  (The Battle of Hong Kong is recorded as beginning on December 8th, because it lies on the other side of the International Date Line, but in real time there was only a matter of a few hours difference - shortly after dawn in both places.) 

The garrison at Hong Kong (about 14,000 men, attacked by a Japanese force of about 52,000) held out until December 25 before finally capitulating.  Two Canadian units - the Royal Rifles of Canada and the 1st Battalion, Winnipeg Grenadiers (with support personnel numbering almost 2,000 men) - were in the garrison at Hong Kong.

I can't lay my hands on a reference at the moment, but I seem to recall reading that, although both nations declared war on Japan on December 8th, 1941, Canada actually did so ahead of the United States.

[Trailrider]

Yes it should be remembered, and might have not been quite so surprising.  The Japanese had their imperial ambitions threatened by an American embargo. But isn't it remarkable that our enemies of WWII are now allies and our former allies are now competitors.

Yes, the Japanese hegemony over the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere was inhibited by the American embargo. But remember that that included the Rape of Nanking and other atrocities in China. Could we have avoided the attack on Pearl Harbor by taking military action first?! Perhaps... But you have to remember the very strong isolationist movement in the U.S., including opposition to any assistance to England and France or any involvment in a European war. The geo-political activities and faulty U.S. intelligence were mainly the reason why we were taken by surprise on December 7th.  Regardless, the attack was a wakeup call to America. It was followed by Hitler declaring war on us a couple of days later.

It is easy to get into the discussion of the dropping of the A-bombs, especially when the younger generation doesn't understand the mindset of the Japanese imperialists. They were determined NOT to surrender, and were ready with everything from kamikaze aircraft, chemical weapons to the general population ready to fight with sharpened bamboo sticks! In point of fact, there were more casualties from the Tokyo firebomb raids of the previous week, than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. It was estimated that the Allies would have sustained over a million casualties during the invasion of the home islands.

Regardless, we can still agree to honor those who were at Pearl Harbor and nearby areas on December 7, 1941.

[PJ Hardtack]

But we had already been at war with Germany since September of 1939. Thousands of Americans who were not enamoured of the isolationist policy of the US joined the colours, taking the oath of allegiance to the Crown to serve in the armed forces of Canada and the British Commonwealth, notably among them, the "Eagle" Squadron of the RAF, flying 'Spitfires'.

When the US entered the war, they were offered the chance to repatriate to the USAAF and many did so, the remainder electing to finish the war with the men they had been serving with for two years.

I can't lay my hands on a reference at the moment, but I seem to recall reading that, although both nations declared war on Japan on December 8th, 1941, Canada actually did so ahead of the United States.

[The Trinity Kid]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but didn't American Navy Freighters help to supply England from '39 through the end of the war?  I think there was something like 10 of the ships sunk by U-boats.  I'm not positive on that, though.

--TK

[Octagonal Barrel]

What is also largely forgotten by Americans (.... if, indeed, they ever knew of it ....) is that less than eight hours after the start of the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese launched a massive air and ground assault on Hong Kong.  (The Battle of Hong Kong is recorded as beginning on December 8th, because it lies on the other side of the International Date Line, but in real time there was only a matter of a few hours difference - shortly after dawn in both places.) 

The garrison at Hong Kong (about 14,000 men, attacked by a Japanese force of about 52,000) held out until December 25 before finally capitulating.  Two Canadian units - the Royal Rifles of Canada and the 1st Battalion, Winnipeg Grenadiers (with support personnel numbering almost 2,000 men) - were in the garrison at Hong Kong.

I can't lay my hands on a reference at the moment, but I seem to recall reading that, although both nations declared war on Japan on December 8th, 1941, Canada actually did so ahead of the United States.

I certainly didn't know that before.  Thanks for thinking to share it.

[Major 2]

What is also largely forgotten by Americans (.... if, indeed, they ever knew of it ....) is that less than eight hours after the start of the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese launched a massive air and ground assault on Hong Kong.  (The Battle of Hong Kong is recorded as beginning on December 8th, because it lies on the other side of the International Date Line, but in real time there was only a matter of a few hours difference - shortly after dawn in both places.) 

The garrison at Hong Kong (about 14,000 men, attacked by a Japanese force of about 52,000) held out until December 25 before finally capitulating.  Two Canadian units - the Royal Rifles of Canada and the 1st Battalion, Winnipeg Grenadiers (with support personnel numbering almost 2,000 men) - were in the garrison at Hong Kong.

I can't lay my hands on a reference at the moment, but I seem to recall reading that, although both nations declared war on Japan on December 8th, 1941, Canada actually did so ahead of the United States.

Winston Churchill did not wait for FDR's address to both Houses , and a also declared War ahead of the US on the 8th. 

[PJ Hardtack]

The US Merchant Marine did indeed ship tonnes of war material to Britain during the war and many were lost to U-boats. One of the reasons was that being a neutral country before joining the war, US Atlantic seaboard cities were lit up like Christmas Trees, astounding the Kriegsmarine submariners. They sat on the surface and had a field day gunning and torpedoing the silhouetted freighters. The Gulf of Mexico was a favourite hunting ground as was the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

The other great boon to Britain after Pearl Harbor was the "Destroyers For Bases" program whereby many mothballed WWI vintage four-stacker destroyers were supplied to the Royal Navy for convoy duty. One of them (HMS Campbeltown) was later camouflaged to resemble a Kriegsmarine destroyer and used in the famous raid on St. Nazaire. She was packed with HE and rammed into the locks of a dry dock facility designed to service the German 'Pocket Battleships' Tirpitz and Bismarck.

The undiscovered HE blew up several hours later, killing many German investigators, putting the locks out of service for the rest of the war.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but didn't American Navy Freighters help to supply England from '39 through the end of the war?  I think there was something like 10 of the ships sunk by U-boats.  I'm not positive on that, though.

--TK

[PJ Hardtack]

WTF? Translation, please.

I'm sure it must be relevant and germane to the discussion.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Yea but the Eagle Sh-t 1st and shut em all up and they ain't had much to say since! One feller got outta hand but we will own that part of world very soon.

 

[cpt dan blodgett]

It is easy to get into the discussion of the dropping of the A-bombs, especially when the younger generation doesn't understand the mindset of the Japanese imperialists. They were determined NOT to surrender, and were ready with everything from kamikaze aircraft, chemical weapons to the general population ready to fight with sharpened bamboo sticks! In point of fact, there were more casualties from the Tokyo firebomb raids of the previous week, than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. It was estimated that the Allies would have sustained over a million casualties during the invasion of the home islands.

Regardless, we can still agree to honor those who were at Pearl Harbor and nearby areas on December 7, 1941.

The nukes may well have been a real blessing for the Japanese, many many times more would have been killed had we continued to conventionally bomb and invaded.

[Gus Walker]

  I agree how many Japanese and Americans would have been killed if a land war in Japan had occurred. And how long would it have gone on?

[PJ Hardtack]

The air war against Japan was taking a lot of American lives as well:

"Takeoff was frightening for B-29 crewmen, especially those in the rear of the aircraft. Every man on Guam, Saipan and Tinian had seen a B-29 fail to get skyward, falter and fall into an unforgiving sea dotted with rock formations. The B-29 remained an imperfect aircraft.
FOUR HUNDRED AND TWO B-29's were lost bombing Japan - 147 of them to Japanese flak and fighters and 255 to engine fires, mechanical failures and takeoff crashes."

"We led Malo's ship to Iwo Jima. His bomb bay doors were stuck in the 'open' position, the fuel transfer was out and so was the radar. Iwo Jima was within reach, but bitter fighting was still taking place there. No B-29 had yet saved itself by landing on the sulphur island being slowly wrestld from the Japanese at a cost of 6,800 Marine lives.
Malo did land on Iwo, the first of 2,251 landings by B-29's that saved crew members lives and redeemed the awful cost of the battle for Iwo Jima."

Another excerpt:

"They expended extra fuel in searching for the target. Their B-29 strayed from clear, windy Tokyo to shrouded, snow spattered skies above open water just off the coast north of the capital. Had they been a few miles inland, they might have been in the same location where three other B-29's, caught in a more intense part of the same snowstorm, flew right into the same mountain at the same time - 32 crewmembers killed in a matter of seconds."

From - "WWII History Magazine"  December 2013

I had no idea that so many B-29's were lost and that it was such a flawed aircraft.

[PJ Hardtack]

Rick

Please - do us all a favour and drop the "Aw shucks ....", semi-illiterate Cowboy jargon and deliberate misspelling.

People make intelligent commentary on serious topics and you embarrass yourself time and again with your less than witty, grade school repartee.

I would have spared you by sending you a pm, but you've blocked my messages. By all means, continue to lower the bar and make yourself a laughing stock, the subject of derision amongst the members.

[Blair]

Just my thoughts... some children require more supervision than others.
I hope the Mods choose to delete the flame bait posting, rather than lock down the whole thread?
It takes more effort on their parts, I know, but we will just have to wait and see.
My best,
Blair