Author Topic: .44 Henry CF Ammo  (Read 17255 times)

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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.44 Henry CF Ammo
« on: November 07, 2013, 11:22:24 PM »
This should clear up any questions on this issue:


http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9931

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 12:00:28 AM »
That is very interesting information, FCK.  We have this idea that ammunition developements are American, or British, or German, and even some from France.  Now it seems that the Brazilians created the .44 Henry cf. and merely ordered some carbines made up in 1891 or 2.  The whole idea that the Henry cf was a sort of transitional forerunner to the .44 WCF designed by Winchester is way off the track.

At least the mystery is revealed.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
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With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 10:02:42 AM »
That's an interesting bullet design with a heel and the grease grooves out of the case.

What are the non-metric measurements of the bullet?
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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #3 on: Today at 04:09:56 PM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 11:02:23 AM »
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 07:47:23 PM »

Offline Sean Thornton

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 09:35:41 PM »
What information have any of you run across of center fire Henry rifles? I know some were used in Western movies of the 40s-50s.  I have handle an Henry rifle that had been converted to center fire some years back.
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 10:51:27 PM »
This is an exerpt from a book report I wrote for THE SHOOTIST a few years back on THE HISTORY OF WINCHESTER FIREARMS. The key passage is the paragraph quoting directly from page 12. of the book;

Review; THE HISTORY OF WINCHESTER FIREARMS

By;  Duncan Barnes, George R. Watrous, James C. Rikhoff, Thomas H. Hall, and Pete Kuhlhoff, Winchester Press, 5th edition 1966, 1973, 1980
ISBN 0-8329-0397-3

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
""Now; Let’s get down to brass, “tacks” I was going to say.  What about the Henry center fire cartridge?

Frank Barnes was likely misled by the 1895 Winchester catalogue.  It clearly stated that the manufacture of the model 1866 was abandoned as soon as manufacture of the model of 1873 commenced. I was surprised to read that manufacture of the model of 1866 continued on a sporadic basis until 1898. The record of the last 1866 firearm assembled bears the date August 1898. I have personally seen an original 1866 in .38 cf, special, I think. It was used in a match in Victoria some few years ago by a shooter from Washington State. Apparently it had been assembled on a special order basis in 1918 from parts discovered in the plant.

Page 12. “In 1891, 1,020 M/66 components parts on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 “Henry” center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil. In making up this lot of guns it was necessary to change the breech pin by discarding the Breech Pin Snapper, substituting a center fire firing pin and also inserting a threaded bushing in the face of the breech pin base with a hole in the center to allow the point of the firing pin to protrude and hit the primer. All other components were the same as previously used on the standard M/66, 44 caliber rim fire rifles, except for the chambering of the barrel.”

This appears to solve the mystery of the 44 Henry center fire.  I am sure that some .44 rim fire firearms were locally converted to center fire.  If the 1,020 originals were shipped to Brazil, most examples found in North America would likely be of the locally adapted variety. Ammunition would not likely be a problem as long as .44 American ammunition was available.""
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Of course, we now know the Brazilian part of the story!
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2013, 11:27:42 PM »
The Henry was long out of production by the time the South American '66s were produced.  There is no historical evidence of Winchester ever producing a center fire Henry.  Doesn't mean there were never any "smith" done center fire conversions.  I've never personally seen any, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist somewhere.

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Offline Sean Thornton

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2013, 07:55:23 AM »
There are several Henry rifles that were converted to center fire, while not at the factory very likely by a gunsmith for a private individual or the movie industry. I was wondering if anyone has run across any of these. I have seen more than one that was converted. One I looked at the owner had never opened the action of the rifle, at least that is what he told me. I asked if I could work the action and he said ok. I was surprised to see that it was indeed a center fire Henry rifle.
"Victory thru rapid fire"
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Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2013, 12:17:20 PM »
The problem in converting a Henry or a '66 to CF would be the chambering. To rechamber one would need to remove the barrel which is difficult at best on a Henry. Then, you would still be limited by the length of the breech opening. The only real viable option would be the .44 S&W American. Winchester got around this in 1891, as we have seen, by merely converting the firing pin as the Europeans & Brazilians simply made a .44 Henry CF ctg. This was the best & easiest, albeit outdated, method.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2013, 02:00:04 PM »
FCK; It would not require rechambering.  The essential measurements of the Henry, both rf & cf and the American are the same.  The .44 American was created from an US Army requirement for a centerfire No 3 revolver, which was initially presented in .44 Henry rf.  S&W did a quicky conversion to cf without altering the overall profile of the round.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Blair

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2013, 02:39:16 PM »
Sir Charles,

I would agree.
I have never had a chance to view a Henry cf conversion.
I have seen several '66 conversions, but none that I could play with and cross check the interchangeablity of ammunition.
I only have my own S&W .44 American and a few original .44 rf Henry pointed and flat nosed bullets I can cross check in my S&W. They function fine. I, of course, have not tried shooting those original rounds in my Smith. They are just too hard to come by these days.
Perhaps, one day, I'll find someone with an original '66 that will let me try my internally primed cf .44 American cartridge in?
Blair
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Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2013, 03:50:10 PM »
FCK; It would not require rechambering.  The essential measurements of the Henry, both rf & cf and the American are the same.  The .44 American was created from an US Army requirement for a centerfire No 3 revolver, which was initially presented in .44 Henry rf.  S&W did a quicky conversion to cf without altering the overall profile of the round.


I know that, hence I referred to opening the breech, implying for example say a 44-40 which in 1891 was THE ctg. for any lever action utilizing pistol style ctgs. As well, the .44 American was a weaker ctg. using less BP and a heavier bullet as did the .44 Russian.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2013, 05:59:12 PM »
Fox ck; You actually said so in your post.  The authors of the Winchester history mentioned chambering and so did you, so I felt the egocentric need to underline the issue.  Me no bad (I hope), but did use a hammer to make the point.  No hard feelings?
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Buck Stinson

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2013, 08:18:08 PM »
In 1968 my parents gave me an original 1866 Winchester carbine as a high school graduation gift.  I still have the gun, which is all original and in very fine condition.  This gun was shipped from the factory on October 20, 1888 as a .44 Henry Center Fire.  The brass carrier is marked .44 CAL. and the barrel is marked .44R.F.  These markings are both consistent with center fire 66's, which were shipped earlier than the 1891 order that was sent to Brazil.

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2013, 03:30:35 AM »
Fox ck; You actually said so in your post.  The authors of the Winchester history mentioned chambering and so did you, so I felt the egocentric need to underline the issue.  Me no bad (I hope), but did use a hammer to make the point.  No hard feelings?

Relax, we're all here to learn & share.  ;)



Buck, I will assume that you have a factory letter since you mentioned the ship date. The logical conclusion is that Winchester was making a big push to use up old parts at this time and a .44 Rimfire at this late of date was a hard sell at best. Since the survival rate of '66's is estimated to be approx. 10% that is why we see so few of these today. It sure would be nice if you could post some photos of this rare rifle.


Offline The Pathfinder

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2013, 07:45:03 AM »
Buck, you wouldn't also happen to have a couple of old cartridges still around for it, would you? would be great to actually get some measurements off of 'em.

Offline Buck Stinson

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 11:52:59 AM »
I have several boxes of Henry Rim Fire ammunition, but I've never had any of the center fire cartridges.  Not long after I received the gun in 1968, I had a friend try to locate some ammo that could be displayed with the carbine.  He actually found one single round, but the price was $100.00 for that single cartridge.  At that time, the gun was only worth $300.00, so spending $100.00 on a single cartridge was out of the question.  I do not do Photo Bucket and that seems to be the only way to post photos on CAS City.

Offline matt45

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2013, 12:06:43 PM »
I think I've related the story ad naseum about my old neighbor who shot all the ammo for his Grandad's 66 missing a deer.  That was one of the 1866's built in the 1890's.  Gil was sure it was a 44 R.F., but maybe the bullets were internally primed?

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: .44 Henry CF Ammo
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 02:27:41 PM »
http://www.oldammo.com/september04.htm

http://www.oldammo.com/november07.htm

Scroll down about half way for .44 Henry cf dimensions;

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/riflelist2.htm

Note the similarity of the Henry cartridge to the 442 revolver as well as the Argentine Nagant. They seem to follow a theme of a .44 heeled bullet in a compact package.

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

 

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