Doing my Rem 58 Action Job

[Fredcdobbs]

I started with a Taylors 5.5" Uberti '58. The cylinder is back with them to remove nips. Found out too late they suggest putting the cylinder on something hard and giving the nip a crack with a brass punch. When it returns It gets Slix shot nips and a reduced power spring. Now it is nice and smooth but too much main spring. Grips are refinished in oil. Nice Unotch sight filed in and just below it, a slight 45 degree angle to help the hammer go home without a hickup. The end of the rammer got a nice smooth concave dish. The internals were all smoothed and so were the tracks they glide in. The bolt spring was replaced with a wire Colt 73 model but i had to unbend the angle on the end of the spring to reach the Rem trigger. Those angle files from Brownells helped the job. The trigger guard was rounded and thinned on the back side for my big hand and polished. That's about it. A Kirst converter to be added later.

[Fredcdobbs]

Got to be careful doing the sight notch. Use duct tape to fill in the groove in the receiver.
Put some duct tape on the end of the file so it can't scratch the metal. I used a flat swiss miniture file from Brownells Puts about a .080" notch in the frame. Cold blue and oil.

[Octagonal Barrel]

I've gone the Wolff piano wire trigger and reduced mainspring route in my Pietta Colt '62 Police guns (slixshot nipples as well).  One they run fine in, the other I'm still working on.  I think it can be a challenge to make some reduced mainsprings work in a cap and ball gun.  The one that has issues is a BN (year 2000), but the one that runs well is very recent (CL).  I doubt that's a coincidence.  I think the precision of more recent Piettas has come way up.  I did see a difference in the angle the mainspring sat at between the two guns.  The older gun had a lower mainspring angle, and I'm sure that resulted in even lower mainspring tension and less likelihood the cap would go off with the Wolff mainspring.  Just a passing note in case others are struggling with reduced mainspring reliability in cap and ball guns.  Same gun from widely divergent years may result in different reliability issues with reduced springs.

Kirst converters?  You've taken my breath away.  How can you live without the smell of ignited caps?

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[Slowhand Bob]

With Remington revolvers it is a natural to use Converters with the solid plate and load cylinders out of the gun.  This allows one set of guns to cover all categories quickly and easily.  My most recent pair of Piettas were the first ones ever purchased by me that had a basic 'out of box' timing problem.  Both will over rotate when being operated aggressively fast. 

[Fredcdobbs]

I could go with a Howell type converter. I like the idea of not cutting the gun. Used R and D cylinders on a pair of ROA pistols I used to have. They just went in with no hassles and worked very well. Kind of strange, but for me and a good friend with the same setup, the ROAs with the R and D conversions were the most accurate Rugers SA pistols we owned. I used to use little 160 grain .45 bullets and they were really accurate. I think the slower barrel twist likes a lighter bullet closer to the round ball weight and brearing surface. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
I installed light Colt SA main spring and it won't bust a cap. Basically, I'm going to back out the main spring until it fails to bust a cap then screw it back in until it fires reliably, measure how much the spring stands pround of the grip and take that much off the other tension end. I also polished the spring tip where it rides on the trigger. a that should get it.
I am thinking there is something about the geometry of the Rem trigger that doesn't allow the same leverage on the spring so they will just always cock harder than a Colt.
I ordered a Pietta London .44 from Cabelas. The wedge was pounded so hard into the gun, I had extreme difficulty getting it out. The grip frame was not fit well and the one pound five oz trigger pull made me uncomfortable. I don't think it's a safe pull for most people.
Once burned, I quit on Pietta.  It would be different if I could shop in person and pick a winner instead of doing it by mail. Shipping back is a pain in the backside.
 I like having guns that yield to some hand work to make minor improvements. For me it personalizes the gun and makes a bond. Also like the history associated with the guns. 
I saw a video where someone took a dremel to the Remmie nipple openings so he could use a snail type capper. I still have my socks on for that modification.

[Octagonal Barrel]

With Remington revolvers it is a natural to use Converters with the solid plate and load cylinders out of the gun.  This allows one set of guns to cover all categories quickly and easily.  My most recent pair of Piettas were the first ones ever purchased by me that had a basic 'out of box' timing problem.  Both will over rotate when being operated aggressively fast. 

I've been told that's a technology problem related to the design of all old style cap and ball revolvers.  I think it relates to the hand/spring design.  I hope others with cap and ball gunsmithing experience will weigh in on this.  I'm uncertain whether ROA's or Colt style cap and balls modified to take a Ruger style hand spring are prone to the same problem.  I do know I can run one of my standard hand/spring assembly Piettas pretty fast with the reduced spring and hold-with-the-right-hand-and-cock-with-the-left-thumb technique.  But the other one isn't up to it.  If hand/spring design is the issue, a converter won't solve the over-rotation problem, since a converter replaces stuff forward of the hand/spring.  (Nor will it give me back the smell of burnt caps...  Might be riding a dead horse on that comment.)

[Slowhand Bob]

I have most often heard that it indicates the need for a 'harder' bolt spring but do think that is the quick and dirty fix on occasions when it does, in fact, work.  I have seen everything from reshaping the bolt to adjusting the cylinder cuts recommended as well as the aforementioned hand timing work recommended.  Actually sorting out the different fit/timing issues is beyond my range of understanding so I often end up going with the band-aid approach, such as heavier springs.  Sadly, I do know for a fact that this is often what we end up paying supposedly real gunsmiths to do more often than we realise!   

[Octagonal Barrel]

I have most often heard that it indicates the need for a 'harder' bolt spring but do think that is the quick and dirty fix on occasions when it does, in fact, work.  I have seen everything from reshaping the bolt to adjusting the cylinder cuts recommended as well as the aforementioned hand timing work recommended.  Actually sorting out the different fit/timing issues is beyond my range of understanding so I often end up going with the band-aid approach, such as heavier springs.  Sadly, I do know for a fact that this is often what we end up paying supposedly real gunsmiths to do more often than we realise!   

In this case, I think band-aids are historical.  Supposedy, all original cap and balls had heavier springs to be surer of cap igintion.  I have wondered if I'm departing down a wrong trail fork by going with the Wolff's in my problem child '62.  Undecided as of yet.  Let you know when I finally am sure.

[Fredcdobbs]

Octagonal, Just a thought. Maybe stoning the interior parts with Arkansas stones and polishing the interior friction points might allow the lighter springs to work more efficiently by lowing internal friction. I talked to someone who used Moly based engine assembly lube on the interior of his guns. Black nasty stuff but a low friction lube. Don't know if you need to go that far but when you take the springs out and work the action, you can sure feel the friction at work dragging on the works.

[Octagonal Barrel]

Octagonal, Just a thought. Maybe stoning the interior parts with Arkansas stones and polishing the interior friction points might allow the lighter springs to work more efficiently by lowing internal friction. I talked to someone who used Moly based engine assembly lube on the interior of his guns. Black nasty stuff but a low friction lube. Don't know if you need to go that far but when you take the springs out and work the action, you can sure feel the friction at work dragging on the works.

Thanks for the suggestion.  In this case, friction isn't the suspect.  I'd already done some stoning work before installing the springs.  The issue seems to be the exact geometry of the older 2000 vintage parts - which worked fine with the original trigger and mainspring, but don't seem to work with the Wolff springs.  In fact, this gun's reliability with the previous springs was what convinced me it would make a good BP match pistol in the first place.  (You will note here that I have been trying to fix something that wasn't broken...  I just like the feel of the newer gun with the Wolff springs so well that I've decided to try to make the old one run the same.)

In addition to light hammer strikes, the old gun didn't do well with the reduced piano wire trigger spring either.  It gave the gun a trigger pull so light I feel it made the gun unsafe - literally touching the trigger (zero creep, almost zero pull weight) sets the action off.  Again, I think old part geometry is the issue.  it looks like the older hammer sears are not as deep, and very faintly rounded.  Perfect for the old spring.  I'm experimenting with a new hammer that has deeper, very sharp sears by comparison, and that seems to improve the issue.  ...Except I forgot to buy a new hand/spring to go with the new hammer.  The new hammer requires the hand to be fitted to it, and I don't want to monkey with the old hand, since it still works fine with the old hammer/trigger spring combo.  I can always go back to the original springs, which did work fine, if I want to.

Of course, the reduced springs were meant for primered cartridges in the first place, so if you get that Konverter, you'll probably bypass some of my issues.

As an afterthought, you mentioned rebending the trigger spring wire to fit the Remmie.  I had the same issue with my Colt clones.  I wrote to Wolff Gunsprings, and they advised they make 3 different length springs, and the one for EMF's is the longest.  That's what wound up fitting in my Piettas.

I should say I don't intend to hijack your thread.  My intent in bringing all this up is that making reduced springs work in any cap and ball gun - Colt, Remmie, whatever - can be done in at least some cases, but may take significantly more gunsmithing work than just swapping out springs.  Also, I've seen wiser, more experienced gentlemen than me (see Capt. Baylor's website, for example) who say to give up on reduced springs in cap and ball altogether.  It does occur to me that the fractions of a second I lose from using the harder springs in the handgun will never equal the time I lose moving from staged gun to staged gun inexpertly, and inexperience handling and reloading the double barrel.

[Fredcdobbs]

Don't sweat it, I'm just looking for information like everyone. I discovered that if I get some rouge and a bullet like Dremel cotton polishing head working, I can quickly polish the inside frame bearing points including the hand channel etc. It's quick and efficient and pays off. A quick spray with parts cleaner, then Ballistol and some Qtips for minor cleanup and you are good to go and a little slicker.
Did that to all three guns and they feel great.
I hope Taylors doesn't bungle the order on the new cylinder so I can shoot Wed. j
Pictures of the two completed guns. Remmie to follow.

[Fredcdobbs]

The R and D cylinder from Taylors went in well, timed and locked up with a little help. Filed some metal off the cylinder pin boss under the barrel and Arkansas stoned the recoil shield, the back of the R and D and the filed surface. After some ins and outs, it worked fine.

The Replacement Uberti cylinder from Taylors also worked well. Removed factory nips and installed Slix Shot nips with anti seize grease.

Max spring tension firing caps reliably allowed .040" to be filed off the main spring tension screw.
I plan to put some of that anti seize lube on the R and D firing pins which should keep them working as well and not freezing.
Tomorrow I shoot these lovelies.

[Indian Outlaw]

Where have I seen that gun before? Heh heh. 

[Fredcdobbs]

Where have I seen that gun before? Heh heh. 

I get around. (:^).

[Fredcdobbs]

Range Report. I shot at seven yards as I had four guns to test and had to keep it simple.  Had a loading lever problem on the 58 which I hadn't noticed Once noticed I had to hold it up with masking tape until I got it home to file and fix.
In the R and D cylinder, The Schofield brass with 4.0 and 4.5 grains of Red Dot and the small 150 and 160 Grain bullets was amazing. Shot clover leafs at 7 seven yards and shot point of aim. I couldn't be happier. The twenty grains of FFFG and the Hornady round ball shot very well near center. The Slix Shot nips did very well. All fires all the time. The schofield reloads shot with stupid low recoil. This was my old CAS load shot in my Ruger RV pistols.
The 1861 had the original Uberti nips and had a couple double hits and one that won't shoot no matter what. I Need to get better nipples but the gun shot smooth and true. 17.5 grains of 3F and Hornaday .375 ball.
The 1860 also shot very well with Tesco nips. Tended to drift to 2 oclock groups but nice and tight. Might have to adjust the rear notch on the hammer. but more testing is needed before going for the file. I also need to get in the ill timed Kirst cylinder for the 1860. .454" ball and 24.5 grains of FFFG
Overall, I couldn't be happier. Now if I just didn't have to clean em. I am going to try the cylinders and parts in a Hornaday ultrasonic cleaner with soap and water. See how that works.
Got to order the nips. I have no preference on Slix Shot or Terescos except the last Trescos had rough thead endings and had to be dressed with a little file to install. That's BS on an expensive set of nips.
The 150 and 160 grain bullets shot more accurately than the 230 grain Black Hills Schofield ammo.

[PJ Hardtack]

I have a drop[ping lever problem with one of my Remmie .44's. How did you modify the catch?

I've been considering putting in some JB Weld and doing some filing ....

[Fredcdobbs]

I have a drop[ping lever problem with one of my Remmie .44's. How did you modify the catch?

I've been considering putting in some JB Weld and doing some filing ....

Haven't fixed it yet BUT I did turn the gun sideways and looked at it with something light behind. You can see the gaps and why it doesn't seat and lock properly. Filing a little off the top of the loading lever above the latch and also relieving the ketch notch in the barrel where the two meet will allow the lever to seat higher up and the latch to advance in it's notch. That's my plan...

[Fredcdobbs]

I saw Belevieu's modification to unshroud the Remington nipples so you can use a capper, so I tried it.
About an hour with the Dremel and a half dozen small sanding drums, a blast of parts cleaner, finish up with a small dowel and 400 wet dry paper, cold blue, Ballistol and done.
Also fixed that pesky dropping loading lever by filing for a good solid contact.
A bit of work but I have it whipped into pretty good shape. It perfectly fits my old CAS RV holsters. Also the 1890 Rem in the other.
 

[Fredcdobbs]

Sill at it. I cut a small piece of copper tubing the same width as the grip frame for slipping over the grip screw. Keeps you from cracking a grip on tightening.
I also installed two light tapered cowboy action springs for the hammer spring. Works great. I'll keep one in for the cartridge conversion and use both for the cap busting when more pressure is needed.

[Fredcdobbs]

Here is the modified Remington in my old three color leathers. Belt from Dave Creiger, holsters from the now out of business Tombstone Gun Leather in San Diego and the ammo box from El Paso Saddlery, an excellent but now expensive maker. I had a gift certificate for El Paso, and he didn't do the color of the holsters, I'm not color blind.
The holsters originally fit a pair of Ruger Vaqueros.