How long does it take to Shoot a brass frame apart!

[willy]

Never had any of the confederate brass frame colt cap&ball revolvers.
But was wondering about how long they would last .
Really interested in the 36 cal. guns only,,, seeing as I don't know of any real brass frame 44 from that time period.
Has anyone every really shot one to the point that they are unreliable?
If so ,how about some details of the charges you used and est. of how many rounds it took.
And for those who shoot them with no problems. What loads do you use, ands how much do you shoot them?
 

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

willy some folks like prune juice, some orange juice and some apple juice.  You are about to get a huge range of responses. 

My own personal experience:  Got my first brass frame in the 70's, shot it with heavy loads for years with no problems.  Folks that I know got brassers and they lasted a year or two with heavy loads.

with light loads of 17 or 18 grains of 3fff, you should not have any problems for years.  Of course some folks shoot with Murphy so there is no guarantee.

Now get ready for the - They will last forever and they will stretch out of shape in a week responses.   

[Major 2]

Perhaps my response is not what you'll expect...but here is my 2 centavos

Colt never made a brass frame Navy  36 or otherwise, that is Fill. Pietta's idea....

Grizwold & Gunnison made a Brass 36 and it is replicated, I have an original and it's frame is tight and functioning well, the barrel is tad loose on the arbor, some wedge work would solve that...
Spiller & Burr made a brass frame 36 ( see insert )

IMHO opinion if I were to option to buy a Brass frame replica it would be the Spiller & Burr.....

To your question.... if you opt to buy a Brass frame, I'd stay with the G & G or the Spiller & Burr.
Frankly it is unlikely you will over stress with 12-15 grains of BP in these replica 36's.

Now as to the fantasy... 36 & 44 cal. brass frame Colts ( 51 & 60's ) brass frame Remington  36 & 44
I believe you could load a 44 Cal. Brass frame, particularity using 4FFFF and shorten the life on these.
I'm just not a fan of the Guns that never were....

I do think, if a brass frame is what you'd like , go with the (Colt Like ) G&G replica  or the Spiller & Burr.

Leave the Fantasy Guns to the Prop guy's on "Hell on Wheels" , "Ride with the Devil" & "Hatfield's & McCoy's"  they have no clue anyway  

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[Octagonal Barrel]

I have an Armi San Paolo '58 (see my avatar), 2 Pietta Colt 1862 Police (fantasy guns, but very practical and worthy of match gun use), and a Uberti '51 Navy brasser (called the "Augusta" elsewhere).  The biggest worry about my Uberti brasser is not powder charge, but ball size.

I've seen an article on the internet (I'm very sorry I can't find it now and cite it as a reference) which discusses the powder charges found in period paper cartridges.  Period paper cartridges were dissected and powder charges were reported on.  All guns are designed to be used with a particular technology, and cap'n'ball revolvers were designed with paper cartridges in mind, not powder flask loading.  (Powder flask loading can certainly be done with cap'n'ball, but in combat situations, paper cartridges were relied on so far as I am aware.)  So reports on historical paper cartridge loads are very relevant.

The (now uncited) article stated that .36cal paper cartridges of the day typically had between 12 and 18 grains of the equivalent of FFFg black powder in them, under conical bullets.  I'm not looking to argue the historicity of brass frames (they weren't historical, those few Confederate guns which looked brass-like were really gun bronze - a stronger metal).  I'll simply point out that most people who give safety numbers for brass framed revolvers say you need to stay under 20 grains of FFFg equivalent.  If I stay with historically documented powder charges, my brass framed '51 will do just fine.

If you are committed to shooting brassers (and there's no reason you shouldn't), stick with historical loads.  I think you will be fine.  Filling the .36cal chambers with 24gr charges on a regular basis will reduce your brasser to a wall hanger in 500 rounds - at least that's the modern legend, which I believe.

A bigger issue is shooting Pietta vs. Utberti.  Where I live, it's easy finding .375 round ball, and impossible to find .380 round ball in-store.  Have to go to mail order and shipping charges to find .380 round ball.  My Uberti Augusta will not shoot .375's safely.  They migrate forward under recoil.  That leaves an air gap between powder and ball.  I got lucky and nothing blew up.  But that was luck.  All internet sources I've seen say you need .380 round ball for all Uberti .36's.  But Pietta .36's take the .375 round ball just fine.

So maybe my take is unorthodox, but here it is.  If you've got a brasser, shoot historically documented powder charges and you will be just fine.  Pay more attention to revolver make and exact round ball diameter.  Getting that wrong is way more dangerous than wearing out brass frames with too-high powder charges.

There are plenty of people here with more experience than I have.  I look forward to being corrected where I am wrong.

[Fingers McGee]

Perhaps my response is not what you'll expect...but here is my 2 centavos

Colt never made a brass frame Navy  36 or otherwise, that is Fill. Pietta's idea....

Grizwold & Gunnison made a Brass 36 and it is replicated, I have an original and it's frame is tight and functioning well, the barrel is tad loose on the arbor, some wedge work would solve that...
Spiller & Burr made a brass frame 36 ( see insert )

IMHO opinion if I were to option to buy a Brass frame replica it would be the Spiller & Burr.....

To your question.... if you opt to buy a Brass frame, I'd stay with the G & G or the Spiller & Burr.
Frankly it is unlikely you will over stress with 12-15 grains of BP in these replica 36's.

Now as to the fantasy... 36 & 44 cal. brass frame Colts ( 51 & 60's ) brass frame Remington  36 & 44
I believe you could load a 44 Cal. Brass frame, particularity using 4FFFF and shorten the life on these.
I'm just not a fan of the Guns that never were....

I do think, if a brass frame is what you'd like , go with the (Colt Like ) G&G replica  or the Spiller & Burr.

Leave the Fantasy Guns to the Prop guy's on "Hell on Wheels" , "Ride with the Devil" & "Hatfield's & McCoy's"  they have no clue anyway  

Agree with everything Major said - with one exception.  Pietta didn't invent the brass framed Colt.  They didn't start making replicas til sometime after 1967.  Navy Arms was formed in 1956 and stared importing replicas around 1958/59.  I believe that PR, COM, GBL (BLG?), and Gregorelli & Uberti made brass framed replicas in .36 and .44 well before Pietta entered the replica market.  While they may not have stared it; Pietta does perpetuate the fantasy gun product line.

[willy]

Thanks for the replies that gave some info on loads 

btw-For the record I think everyone knows that Colt did not make any brass frame 1851 Navy pistols or brass frame 1860 Army pistols.
The reason I said "confederate colt " brass frame revolvers is so I would not have to list every brass frame open top pistol manufactured by the confederates but still show what style gun I was talking about.

[Major 2]

Point taken then,  willy 

and I concur with Fingers " While they may not have stared it; Pietta does perpetuate the fantasy gun product line."
I did not mean to suggest they had started the phenomenon 

Having been a Prop Master for film, I did take exception "in particular" to the assertion that a Brass Frame 1860 Army was a Grizwold & Gunnison by the "Armor" on Hell on Wheels "

Attached is mine, manufactured in the Spring of 1863
 

[Paladin UK]

Blimey Major ya could take yer eye out with that hammer spur!!



Paladin (What lurvs all opentops  ) UK

[Lefty Dude]

Keep the charge under 20 gr. or under, and they will last a long time.

I have a pair of 51 Confederate Brasser 44's I use in competition. My low pressure load is about 18-20 gr. of APP with a 451" cast ball.

[griswold]

I bought my Uberti .44 Griswold back in 1970 when I came home on leave from Radio School. I had a choice between .36 and .44 and not knowing or caring about being authentic bought the bigger caliber......or as my dad said, I liked the bigger hole.

Except for a broke trigger/bolt spring and some issues with a light trigger pull with the new spring it has held up well for the past 43 years. I put a larger front sight for my old eyes on it a few years ago. I always used full loads, even sometimes using 200 grain conical. It is still fairly tight. Needs a new wedge I think.
For about 15-18 years it was the only weapon I had for home defense and I never felt under armed.

[willy]

Attached is mine, manufactured in the Spring of 1863
 

SWEEEEEEEEET!
I have been looking at pictures on the web of southern revolvers.
The hammer on yours looks longer than any of the others I have seen on the G&G  guns.
I wonder how close tolerances were kept when building them.
One question about your G&G, what is the quality of  it compared to  Uberti of today?

[Major 2]

Apples and oranges really .... The original is well made considering the metallurgy & Labor of the time in Grizwoldville Ga.


The current made replica is made by Pietta, not a perfect replica but not a bad copy.
 The steel is stronger than the wrought iron on my original.
 You should have many many years of service should you get one .


To my knowledge Uberti is not making a G&G , if you do a search you might find a High Standard G&G for sale. ( they had a Cased version & a boxed version )

[Fingers McGee]

To my knowledge Uberti is not making a G&G , if you do a search you might find a High Standard G&G for sale. ( they had a Cased version & a boxed version )

Correct.  They were discontinued around 1994.  The Uberti G&G I have is dated 1970.  If you keep an eye out on GB, they show up from time to time.

[Major 2]

High Standard G&G Revolvers in 36 caliber, the production began in 1974 and ran through 1976 for the Bi-Centinual .
 The frames were made by High Standard and the balance of the parts by Uberti. The guns were assembled and finished by High Standard.
There were two grades the Cased set with a buckle & and a boxed Gun with no acessories.

They also offered the brass frame Schneider & Glassick & the steel frame Leech & Rigdon.

[Tornado]

Point taken then,  willy 

and I concur with Fingers " While they may not have stared it; Pietta does perpetuate the fantasy gun product line."
I did not mean to suggest they had started the phenomenon 

Having been a Prop Master for film, I did take exception "in particular" to the assertion that a Brass Frame 1860 Army was a Grizwold & Gunnison by the "Armor" on Hell on Wheels "

Attached is mine, manufactured in the Spring of 1863
 

That is amazing that you have an orginal G&G, Have you ever fired it?

[Major 2]

No I have not....

[rifle]

Take a 7/8 by 1 3/8    14gauge   narrow rimmed bushing from the hardware and file to fit around the ring on the recoil shield and.......
Cut it away where need be,like where the hammer recess is and where the loading port is and..........
Solder it in place so it protects the ring on the frame that can't take the cylinders recoil without peening........
Stone the nipples/cones by the thickness of the new lil steelbackplate so the caps don't recoil into it and all chainfire.......
In that modification the brass framer can last almost indefinitly with  normal loads like 22gr, FFFg in the 36cal. and like 25-27gr. FFFg in the 44cal.
Don't let the gun get a loose wedge or let the arbor get loose without fixing that or a premature break down will happen from shooting a Colt type with loose parts.
I have a brass framer by San Marcos/ CVA since around the later eighties and fire it with hot loads at times and it's still tight because of the lil steel backplate that protects that ring behind the cylinder on the recoil shield/frame.
Never had a loose arbor yet and I've tested FFFg 777 inn the gun with up to 27gr. and it held up.....except the steel backplate got loose from it's solder and I re-did that to fix the plate to the frame.
If a brass framer gets a loose arbor stop shooting it till that is fixed by setting the shoulder back or a shim ,and then maybe some thread locker if ya want to,to re-tighten that danged arbor. 
Chances are if you don't shoot the gun if it gets a little loose somewhere and fix that looseness before continuing to fire the gun it'll last a very long time.
All brass framers don't get a loose arbor. The loose arbor thing comes mostly from letting the cylinder gap get large and still firing the gun.
Doing the lil backplate thing with the narrow rimmed bushing is almost undedectable when the cylinder is on and the gun together.
Get a new brass framer.....do the solder on the bushing trimmed and cones shortened and all thing .....and...... the gun will last.Just don't shoot it if anything gets loose. That advise goes for any Open Top Colt.
I've never had any loose to my brass framer in all these years and, believe me, I've shot the ever livin crap outta that pistol for about 25 years.
Never fired it till I installed the plate. I learned with the first one I ever had that without that fix the guns will almost always breakdown. Some brass is harder than others and the ones I've had of brass were San Marcos which I believe are the softest of the brass framers.
I've done the lil steel backplate for others on thier brassers and their guns  are still going....at least the ones I still know of.
The steel backplate fix takes several hours to do with the clean up of the solder and shortening the nipples and all.
All the lil plate does is spread the force of the cylinders recoil out to more brass than that narrow thin ring on the frame that gets six indentations from the six parts of steel between the six nipples.
One of the gunsmiths or craftsmen hangin out here should do a tutoral ( solder on the lil steel plate and stone the nipples on  a drill press)with some pics and sticky it in the gunsmith place so people can see that and use the info since I'm about typed out to death and may be pushin up daiseys some day and won't be able to post this from there.
The rather small job is worth the trouble since it makes brass framers really last and....to begin with the brassers are cheaper to buy and just as good as steel with this modification.

[sail32]

Small balls migrating forward in the cylinder are more likely to be a jamming problem rather than a pressure problem.
Hatcher’s Notebook has a chapter on this situation in rifles and rifle muskets.

[Hoof Hearted]

The brass frame revolvers share the same unreliable (or unrepeatable) poor thread pitch issues that occur from time to time on the Italian revolvers. This is one reason why your pistol may get a loose arbor when yer shooting pards keeps shooting......
It's the nature of the beast and the advise given above on ball size, load data, etc. would be in your best interest.

Enjoy the sport!
HH

[rifle]

Peoplemay not notice that brass framers are devoid of the lock pinat then rear of the arbor threads that the steel frames most always have.
A pin hole drilled carefully preferably with an end mill that will get in the steel as well as the brass (instead of drill run out over to the softer brass and not the steel equally) will help reduce the sideways movement that wiggles back and forth and up and down on the brass hole for the arbor. That helps reduse the longevity of the brass hole/threads......that strain sidewats and up and down.

A lock pin from the rear like the steel frames is good but I figure that one thru the frame and arbor from the top down is better fer the brass frammer. Stops the sideways wiggle and the thread pull that loosens the brass frame arbor hole.

Making sure the alignment of the chambers to the bore is good helps stop the excess force of the ball hitting too off center into the bore. That helps the brass framer...good alignment of chambers and bore.

Anyway......the little steelbackplate I mention from time to time(above) is the trick to a long lasting brass framer. Helps the achiles heel of that brass frame. Reduces the need for lighter than standard loads.

Put the lock pin in the frame that the brass framers often do not have and drill from the top down and that bolsters the brass framers arbor hole/threads.

Don't beat yer wedge in like it's gonna split logs since that wedge beat in too hard really stresses the arbor threads. Wedges actually try to pull arbors out of Colt frames the way they are designed.

It's easier to just shoot light loads and hope fer the best but.....the steel shim backplate and the "from the top down" drilled in lock pin hole and that pin makes fer a long lasting brass famer especially if the tune of the gun includes alignment of chambers to the bore/grooves of the barrel.
Proof is in the pudding. I've done the tricks and they work. The tricks I mention are logical also from a mechanical stand point. The manufacturers should do them to the brass framers for us but....they don't.