Author Topic: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice  (Read 12903 times)

1972

  • Guest
Gentlemen,

I was wondering if some of the more experienced CAS shooters could give me some advice/tips on bullet weight.  I’m getting started into CAS shooting and am trying to decide if I want to use 250 grain slugs or a lighter weight – such as 180 or 200 grain slug.  This is for 45 Long Colt.

I know the obvious answer would be to try them myself and see what I like, and I will, but there is also a lot to be said for just asking people with a lot of experience for advice.  No point in re-inventing the wheel if you don’t need to.

Also, I’m going to be casting my own bullets, so will be purchasing a mold, and I thought if I’m buying a mold anyway I might as well try to get the one that is most likely what I will want.

I know the 250 grain bullet is “traditional”, which is a nice touch, and I don’t have a problem with the extra lead.  I was fortunate enough to have been given a lot of good lead, so the extra 50 grains between a 200 grain bullet and a 250 grain bullet is not a concern at all.

What I’m mostly wondering about is recoil.  I’ve been told by quite a number of people that the 180 grain or 200 grain bullets produce much less recoil than the 250 grain bullets, and therefore much less muzzle climb, which allows the gun to be brought back down on target faster and easier.  I would imagine the lighter load would be a bit easier on the wrists as well – and possibly easier on the guns.

So what I’m wondering is this:  Is there really a significant difference in recoil between a 180 grain or 200 grain bullet and a 250 grain bullet – if they are both “loaded down” to the lowest legal limit?

Also, are there any other factors that should be considered?  I don’t imagine there would be any feeding issues with the rifles using the lighter weight bullets because there is not any significant difference in the overall length of the loaded cartridge, and accuracy shouldn’t be an issue either way given the short distances involved.  To the best of my knowledge there aren’t usually any “knock down” targets in CAS for handguns or rifles, so the extra weight of the 250 grain slug is no real advantage.

So the bottom line is:  What do most of you use – and why?

I’d appreciate any thoughts or tips any of you would care to share.

Thanks in advance

Offline Pit Mule

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 96
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2013, 01:06:30 PM »
Been shooting .45 Colts in CAS since 95. And along the way you learn and adjust what your shooting, and everyone can speak of their own personal differences on the matter. Shot 250 grain bullets briefly, too much ‘thud’ for me. So early on I switched to all 200 grain. I shoot duelist so recoil did matter.

The one thing I have learned is the powder used dictates more on recoil than bullet weight. For instance, a 200 grain ‘book’ loaded .45 with Tight Group has more recoil than a 200 grain ‘book loaded .45 with Trail Boss (to me). So I feel powder selection is a big difference. I settled on Vahita Vouri N320, only because felt recoil was lighter to me, and cleaner burning.
Loads change if one decides to get competitive. So I kept the 200 grain for the rifle and started loading 160 grain for pistols. Recoil in the rifle was not an issue for me as was in the pistol and 160 grain bullets felt like less recoil. So I’ve been using 160’s in the pistols for quite a few years.

This year I am switching to all 180 grain bullets so I do not have to load and keep bullets separate. They function great in the rifle. Overall length is the same as a 200 grain (unless thousands are argued) except the sides are more tapered. And really, once the buzzer goes off, recoil is only a lost thought.

Another reason for the 180 grains is cost. Currently at Missouri Bullet Co 500-250 grain bullets are 51.00, 500-200 grain bullets are42.50 and 500-180 grain bullets are 41.00. If your casting get the most you can from your lead supplies. So if you shoot a little or a lot, save the money with the 180 grain bullets. You, the targets or your guns won’t know the difference.
Only my opinion,
Pit Mule
fortdesmoinesrangers.com

Fort Des Moines Rangers
Cedar Valley Vigilantes
Zen Shootists
Nebraska Territorial Rangers
Member: The Naughty Posse
SASS #29220 ( Classic Cowboy )
NRA Life
SASS ROII
NRA RSO
Don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak, & notice more than you realize.

1972

  • Guest
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2013, 03:41:39 PM »
Thank you Pit Mule.  I really appreciate your thoughts, and will definately take them to heart.

When I first started looking into this I was familiar with the 250 grain slugs and was aware of the 200 grain, but had not even heard of the 180's.  I have to admit, I've never heard of the 160's either.

What you say makes sense though, and I'm now leaning strongly towards the 180's.  My wrists have taken a pounding over the years, and I don't need to beat them up for no good reason.

Advertising

  • Guest

Offline FriscoCounty

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 262
  • SASS #: 83712
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 17
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2013, 05:19:35 PM »
Another bullet to consider is the .45 Slim:
http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=86ed5460-f67c-42de-b95f-01a2d16ba04f

You can try before you buy.  There are several who cast it for sale.  Springfield Slime is one source:
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html


NRA Life Benefactor, CRPA Life, SASS Life 83712, RO I, Hiram Ranger 48, Coyote Valley Sharpshooters, Coyote Valley Cowboys, SASS TG

Offline Sagebrush Burns

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 675
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2013, 08:59:37 PM »
Reading your post it seems like you're after light recoil loads.  Bullet weight is the single most important factor in recoil (assuming similar power levels) so lighter bullets equal less recoil.

Offline Mustang Gregg

  • .44 BP GUNFIGHTER
  • Deputy Marshal
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2008
  • LtCol Mustang Gregg & Col Pitspitr at NE CSG 2007
    • Wild West Arms
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2013, 09:26:57 PM »
Sagebrush is exactly right about bullet weight and recoil.
You can do all you need in CAS with a 200 gr bullet at 800 FPS.

No need to beat yourself up, if not needed.

MG
"I have two guns.  {CLICK--CLICK}  One for each of ya."
  BACK FROM AFGHANISTAN!!
"Mustang Gregg" Clement-----NRA LIFER, since '72-----SASS Life & Territorial Governor-----GAF #64-----RATS #0 & Forum Moderator-----BP Warthog------Distinguished Pistol 2004------SAIROC & MMTC Instructor-----Owner of Wild West Arms, Inc. [gun shop] Table Rock, NE------CASTIN' & BLASTIN'!!!!
www.wildwestarms.net

1972

  • Guest
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 01:43:18 PM »
Thanks fellas.  I appreciate the advice.

Can any of you who shoot lighter loads comment on any potential problems with feeding and chambering the lighter bullets in the rifles?  I was talking to a couple of shooters who said that while the 180 grain bullets were beautiful to shoot in the revolvers - almost no recoil at all - they didn't work worth a hoot in the rifles.  According to what I was told, the "lighter" bullets didn't have the weight in the front to properly feed and chamber in the lever action rifles.

I could see problems with shorter bullets, but I would not have thought the weight on the tip of the bullet would effect feeding.  But maybe it does.

Has anybody run into this?  Anybody who shoots the 180 or 200 grain bullets - do you have any problems with them feeding in your rifles?


Offline Pit Mule

  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 96
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 02:17:36 PM »
No problem feeding 180's in my 73. Even the 160's cycled through real well. I do have fellow shooters who run .45 Schofields through their 73's.
fortdesmoinesrangers.com

Fort Des Moines Rangers
Cedar Valley Vigilantes
Zen Shootists
Nebraska Territorial Rangers
Member: The Naughty Posse
SASS #29220 ( Classic Cowboy )
NRA Life
SASS ROII
NRA RSO
Don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak, & notice more than you realize.

Offline Red Cent

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 802
    • Red Cent Custom Leather
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2013, 09:24:15 AM »
The 160s are generally not a problem with '73s. Crimp in the groove and you're good.

The bullet is the most important component of recoil; however, you can further mitigate recoil by using a slow burning powder. This stretches out the pressure curve rather than cause a spike with fast burning powders. Google "powder burn rate" and see which is real fast or pretty slow.
I use American Select for all my cowboy guns. Very good powder unless you want elephant loads.
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS29170L

Offline Driftwood Johnson

  • Driftwood Johnson
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1887
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 06:49:43 AM »
Howdy

Now for the other side of the story.

The 45 Colt cartridge uses a huge, cavernous case, originally designed to hold up to 40 grains of Black Powder. Couple that much powder with a 250 grain bullet and you had a real manstopper, a round that could even put down a runaway horse if needed.

Modern Smokeless powder is much more powerful, pound for pound, than Black Powder and does not take up as much room in the case. Most modern 45 Colt loads using Smokeless only take up less than half of the case volume. That is why Trailboss powder was invented, but that is another story.

One of the problems associated with light loads in 45 Colt is that if enough pressure is not developed by the load, the case will not expand enough in the chamber to fully seal. The result is usually sooty cases caused by 'blow by' as the powder exhaust gasses seek the path of least resistance and blow backwards past the case and out of the chamber.

Also, go too light with your loads and you will start to get inconsistent ignition, which causes inconsistent velocity. That is because most Smokeless powders need to reach an initial pressure of about 5000 psi before they start to burn efficiently. With extremely light loads, that amount of pressure may not be reached, and the powder may burn inconsistently. That is where the huge case, light bullets and light loads can all cause a 'perfect storm' never quite reaching a good consistent pressure.

Very generally speaking, 200 grains is about the limit with light bullets and 45 Colt before pressure problems start becoming evident. Mostly it is just a question of soot on the cases, but I wish I had a dollar for every new Cowboy reloader who is seeking to shoot light recoiling loads with 45 Colt and wants to know why is spent brass is so dirty. Dirty brass and light loads with 45 Colt go hand in hand.

And think about it another way. A very common bullet for 38 Special is the 158 grain semi-wadcutter. If one goes to a 160 grain bullet with 45 Colt, what you are really trying to do is simulate the recoil of a 38 with a 45. Why not just shoot 38s in the first place?

Another choice is loading 45 Schofilelds, or even 45 Cowboy Specials. The Schofield has less case capacity than the 45 Colt and will be less susceptible to pressure problems than 45 Colt. The 45 Cowboy Special was developed specifically for light loads in 45 caliber, it has the same case capacity as the 45 ACP. The downside of these two rounds is the Schofield round may or may not feed well in your rifle because of its shorter Over All Length. The 45 CS round will definitely not feed in a rifle that has not been specifically modified for it.

I know a lot of cowboy shooters want to shoot the grand old 45 Colt because of its legendary connection with the Old West. I also know a lot of cowboy shooters who eventually trades their 45s for 38s because of this. If you go to a major match today, the top shooters are almost all shooting 38s these days, very few are shooting 45s. I was painting targets at the final showdown at a regional yesterday, and I did not see a single 45 on the ground. All 38s.

If you have not bought your guns yet, seriously consider starting with 38s. If you have bought them, do yourself a favor and buy some bullets of different weights and try them. Don't go buying a mold for a bullet you have no experience loading or shooting.

Personally, yeah, I too bought my first revolvers chambered in 45 Colt too. However dirty cases have never bothered me, I only load my 45 Colts with Black Powder and 250 grain bullets.
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline Red Cent

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 802
    • Red Cent Custom Leather
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2013, 05:23:56 PM »
Driftwood, if one knows how to get a really tight roll crimp on the 45 brass, this will hold the bullet long enough for the case to seal. I, too, shot 45 Colt for the first year or so. Very little blow by.

Someone should create a bottle neck for the rifle shooting the 45 Colt. Or do they?
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS29170L

Offline Driftwood Johnson

  • Driftwood Johnson
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1887
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2013, 07:44:28 PM »
Quote
Driftwood, if one knows how to get a really tight roll crimp on the 45 brass, this will hold the bullet long enough for the case to seal. I, too, shot 45 Colt for the first year or so. Very little blow by.

Yes, there are several tricks to keep the soot where it belongs. One trick is to only neck size the brass, leaving the rear of the case in the expanded condition, so that it seals better in the chamber. And crimp as tight as possible.

Quote
Someone should create a bottle neck for the rifle shooting the 45 Colt. Or do they?

Huh???? a bottle neck 45 Colt?? I believe that is called 44-40, but it is a 44 caliber, not 45. By the way, it is not the bottleneck shape that keeps the soot in the barrel with 44-40. High pressure gas has no problems going around corners. It is the extremely thin brass at the case mouth.
That’s bad business! How long do you think I’d stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he’d pay me that much to stop robbing him, I’d stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Offline cpt dan blodgett

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1693
  • SASS Conv 2013
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 01:18:44 PM »
Thin neck is what I have always suspected.  Not really much of a bottle neck in the 44/40 but the neck being slightly smaller than the body of the case helps them slide into the chamber a little more smoothly than a straight walled case.  A good roll crimp on a straight walled case and using RNFP bullets has the same basic effect.  Some rifles dont like to eat SWCs..  Not haveing a Henry, 66 or 73 dont know if the straighter push off the carrier vs the pretty sharply angled push of the elevator of a 92 increases the guns ability to eat SWCs.
Queen of Battle - "Follow Me"
NRA Life
DAV Life
ROI, ROII

Offline Red Cent

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 802
    • Red Cent Custom Leather
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 07:24:58 PM »
SWCs is not for speed. I use RNFP in my WBAS 45 rifle and truncated cone in the SASS 38 rifle.'73s.
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS29170L

Offline Shotgun Franklin

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2086
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2013, 09:57:20 PM »
The loads I use seem to be a bit hotter than ya'lls. I haven't had a problem with blow by.
Yes, I do have more facial hair now.

Offline knucklehead

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 501
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2013, 01:36:11 PM »
i use 250 grain bullets with full load of black powder. no problems with blow by or anything else.
i shoot a 66 yellowboy in 45 colt and use black powder all the time now.
the local club in oregon has put some falling targets in for rifles and never had any problems with my loads being too light.
its kinda funny to see people scrambling for heavier loads to handle falling targets with rifles.

recoil is not a big deal to me. i love the smell, smoke and sound of the full loads in my yellowboy.
dont have any troubles bringing the barrel back down to next target. might be because of all the smoke i put in the way of the targets.

best i can suggest is try several loads of the bullets you want to shoot. i have found the i hit the targets better with 200 grain in handguns and 250 in rifles. my handguns had troubles with the lighter bullets. i shoot ruger vaqueros in 45 colts.

load 5 shells of each weight of bullets and try them out till you find a load that works for you.

i know that the top shooters went to 38s so there is no recoil at all. i even picked up some 38s and shot for awhile with em.
i didnt go any faster with the 38s verses 45 colts. so i went back to 45 colt and went to shooting black powder. way more fun for me. i even hit more targets with 45 colt than 38s.

my point is shoot what works for you. try what people suggest till you find what works for you.
I'M #330 DIRTY RAT.

Offline Red Cent

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 802
    • Red Cent Custom Leather
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2013, 06:40:43 PM »
but Knucklehead, I don't have to bring my barrel back down. ::)
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze
McLeansville, NC by way of WV
SASS29170L

Offline knucklehead

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 501
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 180/200 grain bullets OR 250 grain bullets - New Guy needs advice
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 06:55:54 PM »
but Knucklehead, I don't have to bring my barrel back down. ::)

with my loads i do have to bring my barrel back down. someone told me i was using warthog loads.......
 ;D
I'M #330 DIRTY RAT.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2023 CAScity.com